ELDER DRAGON HEXLANDER - for posterity

    • ELDER DRAGON HEXLANDER - for posterity

      Let's for a moment, ignore the whole duo of negativity thing, because all I'm looking for now is to make the game more fun. And yes, this is another post about EDH. Well, Elder Dragon Hexlander, as the topic says. The rough rules for that other game are: Commander + 99 singletons + color identity + 40 life + ban list = Commander.

      With that out of the way, I'd like to propose the following for Hex. Yes, we've already built decks, and turns out it's as fun if not more fun than current standard, even with incorrect life totals to start and a nowhere near as deep card pool. The rules have been adjusted due to the latter, though the former is a sticking point. Below are the current rules, below that are ideal rules.

      Current EDH(exlander) Rules:
      • Players must build their decks around their Champion. Their champion gives their color identity.
        • Uzzu, The Bonewalker is all five colors for the purpose of limited depth.
        • Life total is dictated by Champion.
      • PVP Cards only.
      • Decks are 75 cards.
        • Every card is a singleton, except basic shards. That meaning, you get one of each.
          • We have an expectation that after 1-2 more sets, if the ideal framework is not met, that 99 card decks will be viable based on the previous releases.
      • Only one of each gem may be used in a deck.
      Banned Cards:


      • Subtle Striker
      • ...
      Ideal EDH Rules:
      • Players must build their decks around a Mercenary or Champion. These choices give color identity.
        • Uzzu, The Bonewalker is all five colors for the purpose of limited depth.
        • Life total is 50, as according to game type.
      • PVP & PVE Cards are available.
      • Decks are 99 cards.
        • Every card is a singleton, except basic shards. That meaning, you get one of each.
      • Only one of each gem may be used in a deck.
      Banned Cards:

      • Subtle Striker
      • ...
      As you can see, where things fall apart, is our inability to play an "anything goes" format, as well as being able to set our own life totals. There are decent arguments for life totals above or below 50, but for the sake of discussion, we're just going to stick with 50. I've done the math on PvE cards, and they're swingy enough that the (higher than 40) total is relatively required. Right now, the life total of champions plays too huge a role in making this format less fun than it could be - it's a major hurdle. That said, it's an incredibly fun format, and I played a number of matches today and had more fun than playing Whatever Vs. McBombus like I have been for the last couple weeks.


      A Sizeable Competitive Edge Case We Discovered While Playing:
      • Merciless Culler's ability doesn't go on the stack. I know a number of stack effects were removed in an update like 8 months ago or something, but this is a huge one that isn't all that edge case. Effects that force the loss of something should 100% have the chance to be responded to. It actually hurts this format because you're playing such huge swingy fatties and lots of actions. By not being able to respond to the effect (with say, an action that creates a dude or a creature ability), you're really hurting high level play. I'm not saying EVERY CITP effect needs to be looked at, but ones where a loss of property is taking place, they should really go on the stack as expected.
      Plea to Devs:


      Guys, right now, you're on the record in previous Q&As as saying anything goes is a format available in the game. From the HEX Kickstarter Q&A:


      Now, I'm not like super pissed or anything, but we're talking about a format from That Other Game that had the following effects:

      • Single-handedly revitalized casual play among competitive players
      • Stabilized THE ENTIRE ECONOMY FOR THE ENTIRE GAME
      • Created a use for all the cards that would typically be thrown in a dumpster
      • Gave literally everybody with a reasonably sized collection a ton of things to do during downtime.
      • Brought Spikes together with the other Three Types for fun.
        • I repeat, Spikes and "Everyone Else" - FOR FUN
      So I ask you to implement the following ASAP:

      • A toggle on "Challenge" to amend the following rules:
        • PVE Cards are OK.
        • One of each card in a deck besides basic shards.
        • Life Total of champion health +30.
        • A, currently, one card ban list.
        • A check to make sure that the deck is 99 cards.
        If it's a money issue to get this implemented, like it would cost $15,000 in dev time, for the love of all that's holy - just set up a Kickstarter. The economy and playerbase needs this format. Even if they don't know it yet. (While you're at it, such a thing would be a good way to distribute those things that start with M and end with OX SAPPHIRE).
        Now ridicule me for trying to make casual play worthwhile.

      The post was edited 1 time, last by schild ().

    • Hi Schild,
      I am trying to push this from another angle, but with the thought in mind, that HEX is a different beast, and a mode like this will need to live as a great morphed version of what you know and love.

      Could you explain to me why HEX, specifically, would need to:

      Why increase Champion starting health?
      Why have champions chosen and built around a "threshold" identity?
      Why Would a 1-of Subtle Striker be banned, or a 1 of Titania's Majesty be banned?
      What is the difference of going 99 card decks, or 150 card decks?

      If the idea is to push games into the late-game of a very random and varied experience every-time would specific EDH Champions with their own deck-building rules be ideal for the mode, tied to a single threshold, or 2-plus, based on charge power?

      How many turns should the average EDH player survive to answer rush? What is fun from this angle in the MTG world? Is it not okay to expect players to pack enough early removal to handle an EDH player that chooses to rush? (still trying to understand the need to raise champion health?)

    • The need for higher health comes from the inclusion of PVE cards; since they are often more powerful than PVP cards, champions need higher life so that games don't end incredibly quickly.

      Instead of every champion having a flat 50 health, however, I would suggest either giving all champions double their current life, or their current life + 30. This preserves the variance inherent to all current champions/mercs, while also keeping us significantly differentiated from MTG to avoid Lawsuit 2: Lawyers Boogaloo.

      Keeping decks at 99 instead of 150 ensures that people who WANT to include Jank Bot (and any future cards that are similar) are still forced to make an active choice to do so.

    • EDH is by far the most lacking feature in HEX for me.

      edit: I have build a 100 card singleton deck for Sin'glar which I use on and off in my campaigns. I usually do a challenge with my main champion and when I win it I will do it again with Sin'glar. The deck is clunky at times but more than often performs pretty well. And it's so much fun. Easily my favorite deck to play with currently. I like it so much that i've decided to use my gained stardust mostly to EA all the cards the deck has. I'm even considering buying a lady cassandra with equipment(s) to make it better, even though I find her to be a bit too expensive for a PVE only card.

      Anyway; love this format. I hope it becomes reality one day.
      "Ignorant beliefs are stains upon the mind."

      The post was edited 4 times, last by Transience ().

    • The health idea to my knowledge is as you say to promote a longer game. It's also to promote a more social game that doesn't end super fast I guess (but players have found very versatile combos to win early).

      I have never found rush to be a problem in edh but that's player and deck dependant etc.

      As for health totals I would say just double them all but that leads to some high differences so 50 seems fine but I guess needs testing.

      Banned list should probably be blank but more of a watch list at first.

      I am all for an edh format but one that needs so really open testing at a basic level to see what is exploitable.

      I would also like to see perhaps a legendary troop/card that fits one or more thresholds to have at hand like a general.

      That's all I can think of atm.

    • Transience wrote:

      EDH is by far the most lacking feature in HEX for me.
      Same here. The games I have played (using the rules schild posted above) have been a blast, but it would be great to have this supported in-client. There's no need for official "support" like queues, tournaments, etc. in the short term. Just give us deck validation options in the Challenge menu; with that, we can organize our own tournaments and leagues.

    • Rendakor wrote:

      Transience wrote:

      EDH is by far the most lacking feature in HEX for me.
      Same here. The games I have played (using the rules schild posted above) have been a blast, but it would be great to have this supported in-client. There's no need for official "support" like queues, tournaments, etc. in the short term. Just give us deck validation options in the Challenge menu; with that, we can organize our own tournaments and leagues.
      Yeah, EDH is the ultimate casual format imo. No tournaments and no prices needed.

      Really, the only thing I would love for EDH as an official format is something along the likes that if you win a match a random card in the deck you played gets a permanent small cosmic alteration that signifies it was part of a winning EDH deck. Make it an optional goldsink to prevent abuse. I would love that but it's not even necessary, just my ideal based on the fact that in 'that other game' it's common practice to pimp your EDH decks.
      "Ignorant beliefs are stains upon the mind."

    • I have been wanting to set up a singleton league at HexSales, and maybe that would give them some incentive for setting up in-client rules for it without having to create more queues. However, I have a feeling this isn't going to be a priority until Immortal and the new tourneys are in place and bug free, since that is going to be an additional queue already and they'll want some data on how the number of formats is affecting queue time/spread.

    • First, thank you for posting this so we can get more support behind this game mode. Everyone will have their ideas and opinions on how the format should be setup, and I think now is the best time to throw in even the more crazy ideas.

      Without thinking too much about how it would work in practice:

      In this kind of format I like larger decks, and my preference is closer to 150 cards.
      2x champion health might be better than just static 50, but no change to health may also be fine.
      I like the idea of adding PVE cards, and would like to go further and say you can build around mercenaries. Maybe equipment too!
      I think a banned list will be necessary, but you should start with nothing and see what becomes degenerate.
      I like the idea of singleton gems, but I think there are not enough gems right now.

    • As a follow up to the original post about "please implement now", I would make it even simpler to start:

      A toggle on "Challenge" to amend the following rules:
      [*]PVE Cards are OK.
      [*]One of each card in a deck besides basic shards.
      A check to make sure that the deck is 100 cards.
      Use existing PVE banned list.

    • @BadmoonZ Mercenaries are included in the OP; I think equipment is a good idea too. I think there are plenty of gems if you consider Immortal where all old gems are legal; gems need to be singleton because the whole point of EDH is randomness, and with 4-of gems you can get an otherwise unprecedented level of consistency.

    • NicoSharp wrote:

      Hi Schild,
      I am trying to push this from another angle, but with the thought in mind, that HEX is a different beast, and a mode like this will need to live as a great morphed version of what you know and love.

      Could you explain to me why HEX, specifically, would need to:

      Why increase Champion starting health?
      Why have champions chosen and built around a "threshold" identity?
      Why Would a 1-of Subtle Striker be banned, or a 1 of Titania's Majesty be banned?
      What is the difference of going 99 card decks, or 150 card decks?

      If the idea is to push games into the late-game of a very random and varied experience every-time would specific EDH Champions with their own deck-building rules be ideal for the mode, tied to a single threshold, or 2-plus, based on charge power?

      How many turns should the average EDH player survive to answer rush? What is fun from this angle in the MTG world? Is it not okay to expect players to pack enough early removal to handle an EDH player that chooses to rush? (still trying to understand the need to raise champion health?)

      Let's go in order:

      1. Champion starting health is in fact increased to promote longer games, but also because it's meant to be a creative format. Sometimes creativity is slow. It needs that extra time to come to fruition. And in this game, like Magic, life is time.

      2. A number of reasons, but the main one is that the format came about by building the deck behind the commander / elder dragon. And that person leads an army of things aligned with him. This is a pretty simplified version of it, but in reality it just mostly creates restrictions for each deck as well as providing a guide for building a deck. Restrictions in the face of creativity are a good thing. They force you to think outside of the box rather than the box just containing everything.

      3. Titania's Majesty was on the original ban list because it was simply unfun. It probably doesn't deserve to be banned. Bans shouldn't be based on "funness" of a card. I'll remove it. Subtle striker, on the other hand, kind of neuters the whole concept, which is you have a general and that general is what you built your deck around. If you choose Uzzu and the opponent plays subtle striker on turn 2, GG. Maybe he doesn't need to be banned, but in his case, better safe than sorry.

      4. You can build a 150 card deck. 99 cards is the minimum. Building 150 card decks around anything besides forced requirements from say, Jankbot, isn't actually fun. 99 cards is simply an easier threshold to hit. Also, since it's singleton, 99 cards forces creativity. Finally, building a deck with 50+ resources is kinda meh.



      Rendakor wrote:

      Instead of every champion having a flat 50 health, however, I would suggest either giving all champions double their current life, or their current life + 30.
      I like this. I'm changing it to that.

      BadmoonZ wrote:

      2x champion health might be better than just static 50, but no change to health may also be fine.
      The current champion health levels are actually the only reason people aren't playing this format right now. We've tried it, it's fun as hell, but the life totals get in the way. Having it as a rule validation allows more people to learn how to build their decks and will allow people to know their opponent isn't cheating in a format that's supposed to be casual.

      BadmoonZ wrote:

      PVE Cards are OK.
      This is important and I hope it's part of the inevitable rulset.

      -

      My biggest concern right now is that people within HXE can do better than the "current" ruleset. Maybe they can, but I'd rather they didn't try to reinvent the wheel here. It's basically a perfect format.

    • For anyone who doesn't check the subreddit, Ryusu responded to a discussion about this here.


      Ryusu wrote:

      I'm interested in expanding the conversation on this topic, and hopefully providing more insight into where at least I stand on the issue. I think mach voiced many of my reservations, but I'll ramble on anyways. :)
      Does a format like EDH work as well with only 1v1 as an option? I've played EDH in both free for all and 1v1 personally, and the 1v1 version is a different game entirely and I personally don't think EDH would be as popular outside 3+ player environments. (For what its worth, I think it actually works worse in digital as well, because politicking is much easier in real life.)
      When we eventually implement 3+player games, we will certainly support multiplayer formats, but multiplayer is tied to the same engine as raids, and as Cory said it is a huge task to implement, very likely one of the largest.
      If it's something simple like pauper, singleton, or rainbow stairwell those are all things players could implement on their own and challenge each other with currently. If you and your friends say they want to challenge each other to 100 card singleton, then you have the ability to do that. However, if you're looking for something with more advanced rules like EDH, which has special rules regarding deckbuilding and in game rules, well then that takes up engineering time and if we take time to implement something that fails, then that's a big cost that may have cost us some other feature.
      Your suggestion for custom games regarding hand sizes, health totals, is something that has more potential. I agree with taking advantage of digital space is important, but customized game modes with very specific rules is something that the digital world is much more rigid about than physical products.

    • 1. I know deck validation rules are incredibly low-hanging fruit because I asked an engineer.
      2. 1v1 EDH is awesome, you just end up making slightly different decks than if it were multiplayer.

      If HXE is waiting for MP to implement EDH, I would counter with "that's stupid and they shouldn't wait."

      This is what is known as sitting on a gold mine and they're simply not looking down.

    • schild wrote:

      4. You can build a 150 card deck. 99 cards is the minimum. Building 150 card decks around anything besides forced requirements from say, Jankbot, isn't actually fun. 99 cards is simply an easier threshold to hit. Also, since it's singleton, 99 cards forces creativity. Finally, building a deck with 50+ resources is kinda meh.
      I like this reasoning. Thinking further if 150 was the set amount, then every deck should use Jankbot. I like the idea of 99/100 as a minimum and not a set value, and giving players the option to explore the reward other cards offer if larger deck sizes.

    • Thanks for the feedback. I think one thing HEX tries to do, is differentiate itself more now from its competitors. One way they are doing this is in product identity,

      My suggestion has been: Jankleton
      This mainly supports two terms used, that empower some of the deck building restrictions this mode asks for:
      Large decks, and Highlander concepts.

      What I think could be really cool is:
      Everyone plays this game with the same champion.
      That Champion is the combined Mercenaries - Clatterclank/Sin'Glar. With all their deckbuilding restrictions (150 card deck optional, 99 minimum)
      He would have 50 health, and 2 charge powers. If you choose to play less than 150 cards, you lose 10 health, and the 2nd charge power
      1 - 3 cost - Sin'Glar charge - that draws a card, then you choose and discard a card
      2 - 5 cost - Clatterclank charge - Takes a random card from your take and changes it's cost to zero

      This mode could easily enable PvE and Equipment, and would be an Immortal format.
      I like the concept of no bans, but I guess I can get behind banning Subtle Striker.
      This would be a 1-on-1 battle mode unranked option, and then we can attempted to get a twice a week supported tournament out of it.

      Thoughts?
      Like Schild said, the more we make this low-hanging fruit, the easier it will be to make this a functional and supported game-mode. If we work in the games abilities now, all the above should be low-hanging.

    • My hope is that they introduce a champion that has a 0 cost charge cost which increases it's resource cost each time to allow you to cast a Legendary Troop from your sideboard.

      He also should have a deck constraint of Singleton and 99 cards minimum.

      That champion would than be the only one allowed in EDH matches.
      Live auction house data: hexprice.com

    • Well Schild has a pretty good OP road-map of mostly all low-hanging fruit that could enable this mode. It's just a matter of tweaking it to the point that HEX can call it their own, and then tie-it-up with a bow, and let us play with it. I'm fine with wherever it lands. Support for highlander would be a lot of fun.