Draft Gauntlet feedback

    • AnomalyCobra wrote:

      EVO is a new player tournament mode
      I feel this is a fallacy. I think it may have been intended as one, but a lot of top tier players really enjoy it, even beyond the EV and ladder points.

      It's a format that is distinct from any other format, so unless we're going to start restricting people from playing it after a certain point(a bad idea), I think we have to stop calling it a new player format.
      Gamer. Streamer. Photographer. Writer. Anime Lover. Possessor of Stuffed Animals.

      Also... I'm terrible at this game.
    • Pandaemonium wrote:

      AnomalyCobra wrote:

      the only sharks forced into evo are trying to qualify for CCS through limited which is expensive even when winning
      Does that make sense though. Should people who are trying to qualify as the best in limited be forced to evo? If you are winning your evo tournaments you are not going poor.
      wins #2 and 4 mean nothing, technically 3 wins is winning an Evo and if you pull all junk rares you barely break even with 4 wins but your ladder rating goes up.
    • AnomalyCobra wrote:

      Pandaemonium wrote:

      AnomalyCobra wrote:

      the only sharks forced into evo are trying to qualify for CCS through limited which is expensive even when winning
      Does that make sense though. Should people who are trying to qualify as the best in limited be forced to evo? If you are winning your evo tournaments you are not going poor.
      wins #2 and 4 mean nothing, technically 3 wins is winning an Evo and if you pull all junk rares you barely break even with 4 wins but your ladder rating goes up.
      Which is one reason why I don't play evo and am stuck with a draft format I am not happy with. I was literally drafting once a day, that stopped dramatically and I bet I am not the only one.
    • I understand the arguments in favor of the current system, and I can see why some people would like an even heavier top end prize structure. My feedback wasn't so much that I thought the format was inherently bad, just that I (personally) simply don't find it rewarding enough, that it feels less "fair" than the old system, and that I'm simply not engaging with it. Having to face a deck on its way to 6-0 when I had already lost my first match was just a really bad feeling, and the fact that the game instantly paired me with that guy was just annoying. I'm sure he had been waiting for a bit, but it still bothered me that it didn't even try to find me a match with someone who had my record. It probably isn't actually any less fair on the whole, because at some point I will be (or have been) paired against a 0-1 player on my way to 3-0, but people will always remember the bad times.

      I just would prefer the single-elim 5-3-2-0 format we had before. I don't feel like async draft means you have to go to double elim.
    • The Draft playground experience is basically for all the expelled kids that have to go to a correctional school for bullying.

      The only thinking for a 60% win-rate or less player:
      700 plat equivalent for 3 packs worth of cards, approx. 3 rares, and a 2 or 3 hour potential time commitment with a 33.33% chance to win 2 or more packs
      500 plat equivalent for 5-6 packs worth of cards, 2 rares, and a 1 hour potential time commitment with a 75% chance to win 1 opened pack.

      (Not sure if my percentages are spot on, don't want to hurt my brain)

      Sometimes I am a decent limited player, but I get blown-up often in Draft. There is far more value for me to "gamble" in Evolution, or regular Sealed Gauntlet.
      I feel like the fun experience of Draft is being segregated off from a playerbase that would really enjoy it, because of such a lopsided prize structure, especially given the time commitment comparison. It's frustrating that this has not been compensated for yet. (The extra rare Dino hinted at a while back for a BO3 win is nice, but still not quite cutting it IMO)
    • NicoSharp wrote:

      The only thinking for a 60% win-rate or less player:
      700 plat equivalent for 3 packs worth of cards, approx. 3 rares, and a 2 or 3 hour potential time commitment with a 33.33% chance to win 2 or more packs
      500 plat equivalent for 5-6 packs worth of cards, 2 rares, and a 1 hour potential time commitment with a 75% chance to win 1 opened pack.
      what you say here is very misleading.
      Maybe is term of time efficiency evo is better but i guaranty you draft gauntlet payout is better than evo with a same initial Plat investment.
    • I knew the %'s and the wording there would get me in trouble. I'll blame it on skipping lunch and lacking the brain power :).


      Ignoring percentages and the rationale behind them (and potentially confusion),
      It's a lot easier to have 3 chances at a prize in EVO for a single BO1 win, then it is at having 2 chances at a prize in Draft for two BO3 wins.

      If you start to look at player win-rates, and self determine that you are consistently in draft PODs as the inferior below 50% win-rate player in comparison, you are far better off attempting to fight for prizes in EVOs.
    • I did some maths.

      With a starting 35 000 plats (50 drafts or 70 evo)

      After 3 cycles ( by cycle I mean using the unopened packs you win to enter more draft or evo)
      I rounded the numbers in my calculations. So not 100% accurate but enough for comparaison.



      Number of packs rewarded

      Win ratedraftevo
      35%4572
      40%6386
      45%87103
      50%118121
      55%157143
      60%211167
      65%278193
      70%358223


      This is only after 3 cycles. You break even in 4th cycle with 50% winrate rate
      With 50%+ the gap is more important.

      So yeah if you have a overall winner rate below 50% stay in evo.

      But one important thing to consider : the range of win rate in evo is more focus around 50% than in draft.

      Example if in evo 80% of the players are between 40 and 60%
      In draft 80% of the players are between 30-70%

      So if a player have a win rate around 50% in evo, there is a good chance his win rate in draft is better than that. More around 55%

      Making draft better value even with some win rate below 50% in evo

      Also keep in mind you also get 10 more packs with your initial 35 000plat if you use them in draft compared to evo.

      The post was edited 1 time, last by Gregangel ().

    • i love draft gauntlet, finally i am not stuck in sealed for limited due to time issues. for me time vs counterdrafting (in pod) far outweighs in favor of gauntlet, but i can easily see how it doesnt for others (i still almost routinely pick off-colour playables over mediocre in-colour cards when they wouldnt upgrade my deck, even tho i proably shouldnt and even have to stop myself from hate drafting stuff when i have a slight upgrade or not fully comfortable with playables already).

      But as many, i would really prefer a single elimination structure. so far i have only given up on a pool once at 0-1, but i can definitely see this happening more. its just too much of a time commitment, i'd rather have the one shot at getting lucky, or unlucky, with my pool than the slog of double elimination.

      And yes silvanos, i did 6-0 in the end :P only had one close game where i missed my ruby shard for half the game...
    • Gregangel wrote:

      So if a player have a win rate around 50% in evo, there is a good chance his win rate in draft is better than that. More around 55%
      That's a fallacy.

      For example, I have around a 50% win rate in evo... yet so far among all the drafts I've done in the past year, my winrate is pretty close to 0%.

      Drafting requires different skills than evo, and rewards different skills. Saying 'if you're good at one, you must be good at the other' isn't true.
      Gamer. Streamer. Photographer. Writer. Anime Lover. Possessor of Stuffed Animals.

      Also... I'm terrible at this game.
    • Well no. On average (we talk about statistic /probability) here so not personal case) more variance bring win rate closer to 50 %

      But I should put the reasoning in the other way :
      You have a win rate of xx% in draft. In evo this win rate will shift closer to 50%

      The post was edited 1 time, last by Gregangel ().

    • If you have a win rate of 50% in evo it is likely that your win rate in draft will be less than 50% in draft. In draft you are playing against more competitive oriented people. Also the rare drafters may have dropped and never played a game.

      I think you need like a 60 to 65% win rate to "profit" from draft. Otherwise it is a losing proposition.
    • my hypothesis is same players sample. No différente skill level of the players between draft and evo.

      Beside now with draft gauntlet I really don't think there is a difference of skills level in the players.
      Yes draft is more skill intensive but average skill of the player is more or less the same.
      That explain the winrate range in the two formats are not the same.

      Personally I always got a 51/53% in evo and a 56/58% in draft (even before draft gauntlet )
    • I think it's not correct to assume that someone's win percentages will be the same between evo and draft.

      BO1 and BO3 emphasize different types of deck construction and play, not to mention that the distribution of cards in people's pools are different between the two.

      ---

      Ultimately I think the issue comes down to "do enough people enjoy the draft format at the current prize structure." If so, then realistically Hex doesn't need to do anything. If the numbers are a bit low, then Hex should probably do something with prizes to incentivize more people to play draft.

      Obviously I would like a prize structure change, because even if logically a person might make more packs currently (depending on win rate), many people play based on what feels rewarding and fun - and I'd contend that getting a pack for a win, even though a less competitive payout structure, will feel more fun for many (obviously just my personal opinion without polling data).

      Also, some people prefer the previous structure, but I'm pretty sure that's not going to come back until we have enough players to support two draft queues.
    • I am not sure if comparing evo with draft gauntlet is very helpful due to the different time commitment, skills, length per match and the fact that closed packs are generally more valuable. I also don't do it here because I don't feel like this gets us anywhere.

      Regarding the prices in the different draft formats, I made a short calculation to compare the current situation with what we had before with competitive draft. I assumed that every player has exactly a 50% win rate for reasons of simplicity even though this is not very realistic. But to compare these two in an understandable way and to show why changes in prices would be good or not, this seems fine. Here is a summary:

      Competitive draft:
      There are 4 possible outcomes here:
      WWW (aka "the Crocosaur run" because you stomped your opponents and its threshold)
      WWL
      WL
      L
      With a 50% win rate, the percentages for these to happen are as follows:
      WWW: 12,5%
      WWL: 12,5%
      WL: 25%
      L: 50%

      Draft Gauntlet:
      There are 7 possible outcomes here:
      WWW
      WWL
      WLW
      LWW
      WLL
      LWL
      LL
      Please note that this would usually be 2 x 2 x 2 = 8, but LLW is not possible and LLL is replaced by LL.
      Again, the percentages are:
      WWW: 12,5%
      2 wins (WWL, WLW, LWW): 37,5%
      1 win (WLL, LWL): 25%
      LL: 25%

      Now, let's look at the number of packs we would win in 100 drafts and draft gauntlets if we had a win rate of exactly 50%:

      Competitive Draft:
      12,5 x 5 packs + 12,5 x 3 packs + 25 x 2 packs = 150 packs
      Draft Gauntlet:
      12,5 x 6 packs + 37,5 x 2 packs = 150 packs

      So, in short, the only difference is that the 6th pack for a 3-0 is paid for by getting one fewer pack for a 2-1 compared to the 2-1 in competitive draft. So in 12,5 % of your drafts, you get 1 more pack and in 12,5 % of your drafts, you get 1 fewer pack than in competitive draft. This highlights that the draft format has become more competitive with the introduction of gauntlet.

      At first, I wasn't sure whether cutting 2 packs from the total price pool was actually fine but it looks so. Also, I would generally be in favour of adding a third pack to 2-1 because this would incentivize people to continue after losing match 1 and also help people tremendously to go infinite, but it would obviously make sense to leave the prices as they are when taking the figures above into consideration. Adding a single pack to 1-2 players doesn't make much sense in my opinion, especially due to the competitive nature of the format.

      On a sidenote, I agree with Eraia that evo and draft gauntlet aren't really comparable formats for various obvious reasons. I personally also think that drafting is a lot more skill-intensive and that results in evo sealed depend a lot more on luck as regards the card pool. The deck building is also less dynamic and so on and so forth.