Requesting A Response - Please & Thank You, Cory

    • Pofflord wrote:

      And you actually don't see any problem there? Flooding the AH with cheap cards now and at the same time exporting a then totally broken economy into Hex 2?

      Please please please, Cory, dont listen to this insanity. Protect collection values (small as they may be now, because of the circumstances of last year) and build up with reasonable changes.
      You're implying that a second version of Hex wouldn't follow the F2P business model of Arena and HS. I'd say given where we're at now and how badly Artifact failed, moving away from a secondary market is the best idea.

      I was a huge proponent for having one back in the day, but the more I look at this, the more I realize that game devs should focus on having a playable and enjoyable game experience, not focus on making sure that your investments pay out in five years.
    • Pofflord wrote:

      Pandaemonium wrote:

      I agree with plotunus, the ah should be filled with cheap cards. Card value is now next to zero in real term dollars and the important thing now is to get cards so it can be exported when Hex 2 comes out (please God).
      And you actually don't see any problem there? Flooding the AH with cheap cards now and at the same time exporting a then totally broken economy into Hex 2?
      Please please please, Cory, dont listen to this insanity. Protect collection values (small as they may be now, because of the circumstances of last year) and build up with reasonable changes.
      Hex 2 doesn't exists. It's just a vague idea from Cory for all we know. Even if it exists and it's being planned, any honest development would take 2 or 3 years at least: remember, HXE have a small staff and don't have that much money.

      All we have is Hex for now. And now Hex doesn't have players. Even if Hex 2 comes, most probably it will fail as Shards The Deckbuilder failed.

      So, yes, first rebuild the Hex community. Have some people playing the game. And for that, you need to give to the community three things: Fun, value and a future. You're worried about the Hex 2 economy when we don't even know what the gameplay will be.


      Pofflord wrote:

      If you destroy collection values entirely this will permanently kill your relation with lots of loyal customers from the past and it will set up Hex 2 for failure at the same time.
      Good luck trying to sell your collection! Most of the remaining players are PS4 ones and they can't even buy it. That's the real value of your collection, not the theoretical value you think it has because you have a lot of good cards. If you want your collection to have value again, you need players playing the game. The relation with the customers is already broken, you need to rebuild it again.

      And yes, it's time to liquefy the economy in Hex. Why? Because fixing it it's the best problem you can have in the future: it means that there're people playing the game and taking advantage of it. You can fix a broken economy. You can't fix a dead game.
      Twitter: @Plotynus
    • Plotynus wrote:

      Pofflord wrote:

      Pandaemonium wrote:

      I agree with plotunus, the ah should be filled with cheap cards. Card value is now next to zero in real term dollars and the important thing now is to get cards so it can be exported when Hex 2 comes out (please God).
      And you actually don't see any problem there? Flooding the AH with cheap cards now and at the same time exporting a then totally broken economy into Hex 2?Please please please, Cory, dont listen to this insanity. Protect collection values (small as they may be now, because of the circumstances of last year) and build up with reasonable changes.
      Hex 2 doesn't exists. It's just a vague idea from Cory for all we know. Even if it exists and it's being planned, any honest development would take 2 or 3 years at least: remember, HXE have a small staff and don't have that much money.
      All we have is Hex for now. And now Hex doesn't have players. Even if Hex 2 comes, most probably it will fail as Shards The Deckbuilder failed.

      So, yes, first rebuild the Hex community. Have some people playing the game. And for that, you need to give to the community three things: Fun, value and a future. You're worried about the Hex 2 economy when we don't even know what the gameplay will be.
      I dont think alot of effort should be placed on rebuilding Hex. Yes I am logging back on and rotating drafts should happen amongst other things.

      But putting resources in Hex does not seem like a sound business strategy. People have been burned badly and hex is an albatross. The game has fundamental problems in and of itself that really can only be solved by doing a full revamp.
    • HEXCoryJones wrote:

      Hello!
      I would like nothing more than to have the AH feel fun again, sadly I think that is really a byproduct of the number of people playing the game, much like a chat room with no one in it...

      if you have a suggestion I am happy to consider it!
      my only idea is we have someone on the team put up cool stuff a once a day at a low price so you can bargain hunt them...

      Well, if this is the place to make Auction House suggestions, I have a lot that I'd like added. (apologies if I'm repeating anything already mentioned; I haven't read this whole thread yet)

      0) No, don't put stuff up for low prices! I can't speak for everyone, but I found the AH much more irritating from the position of selling rather than buying, and someone from the Hex team undercutting existing listings would make that worse. Even if the cards that are put up are things that nobody else is listing at the moment, it would still artificially deflate the apparent value of those cards.

      1) Card Information: Whenever you zoom in on a card (whether from your collection or in a draft or battle), you should be able to see how many copies of that card you possess. Additionally, you should be able to select a checkbox to add that card to your "wishlist". There could even be an increment/decrement option to specify how many copies of the card you want to have. For convenience, there should also be buttons available in your collection to set all cards (or perhaps by set) to wishlist values of 0, 1, or 4.

      In that same vein, I would also like to be able to use 'phantom' cards in deck-building. I can add them to a deck while they are on my wishlist, and then I can save that deck. The deck will be invalid for all formats while I don't have the cards for it, but when I get the cards, they will be added automatically. It would also be nice to be able to do test draws - and perhaps "practice" fights - to help determine if certain cards are a good investment for real play.

      2) Buying Cards in the Auction House: By default, the Auction House should only list cards that are in your wishlist that you have less than the desired number of copies of. Of course, there should be a toggle to enable/disable this. That will make it easier to see the cards that you actually want.

      Additionally (and I know that this one was mentioned elsewhere), it would be nice for people buying cards to be able to list what they want to buy and how much they want to buy it for, instead of only being able to buy from listed offers. That would work similarly to the way selling works now, but in reverse. Someone puts up the gold/platinum (plus the 5% cut that Hex gets from AH exchanges), and the card desired and price that the seller gets is listed. In the same manner as with a card offered for the same start and buyout price, either the exchange is accepted and the card/currency are exchanged, or the offer times out and the potential buyer gets their currency back.

      3) Buying Equipment/Mercenaries in the Auction House: By default, the Auction House should only list equipment and mercenaries that you don't have. Of course, there should be a toggle to enable/disable this. I don't think a "wishlist" for these is necessary.

      A "Buy Request" system like the one mentioned above could be used here too.

      4) Selling Cards in the Auction House: By default, the cards that you are able to list should only include those that are not in your wishlist and those that you have more than the desired number of copies of. Of course, there should be a toggle to enable/disable this. That will make it easier to sell only the cards you can spare.

      Additionally, the duration that cards can be listed for should be much longer than 48 hours. Even when Hex was at its most popular, listing cards was a hassle because of the low chance for them to be bought unless you already undercut everyone else. Perhaps there could be some deprecation to this. For example, a card can be offered with infinite duration. Then, for every 12/24/28 hours that a card is on the AH before the first bid, knock some gold/platinum off of its asking price, down to some lower threshold. Once the first bid is made, start the 12/24/48 hour clock before it is sold. That way, people who just want to get rid of excess cards don't have to worry about re-listing them. Meanwhile, if someone doesn't want to sell for too little, they can manually cancel and re-list at the original asking price.

      5) Selling Equipment/Mercenaries in the Auction House: By default, the equipment/mercenaries that you are able to list should only include those that you have more than 1 copy of.

      Again, infinite duration for listings should be a thing here too.

      6) Buying/Selling Chests, Packs, and Stash Items: I think this is fine as-is. Is there any movement of chests or stash items in the AH? Selling packs, on the other hand, was the one part of the AH that worked well for me before, when the game was more active. I recall generally being able to get sales from packs listed at ~150p, which was fine. I don't know how that is working now though.

      7) Bundles: To reduce the amount of clicking necessary for people with huge collections to unload portions of their collections and people new to the game to build up their collections, it should be possible to bundle together collections of cards to sell as a single item on the AH. These groupings could potentially be designed by the developers to fill generic spreads or players to fill specific niches (for example, 1x of every common card in Doombringer, 1x of every uncommon resource in Frostheart, 1x of every card with Illuminate in Dead of Winter, or 4x of every Coyotle with Prophecy). These bundles could also potentially offer good deals compared to buying each card individually, and it could offer a potential avenue to sell excess 'junk' cards.

      8 ) NPC Merchant: There are some cards that just aren't worth putting on the AH at all. It would be nice to be able to directly convert those to gold, platinum, or stardust, but in the interest of making sure that no cards are permanently removed, having an NPC character (perhaps Chark; he gives good deals!) to sell them to would be helpful. Then, other players could buy those cards, potentially for less than they would have to spend at the AH.

      The amount of currency (probably gold for commons and uncommons, platinum for rares and legendaries) should scale with the number of copies of the card that the merchant currently has in its possession. The more copies of the card the merchant has, the less it will pay for another and the less they will cost for someone else to buy (down to some lower limit).

      As a simplified example - I have no idea if these numbers would work - consider that, starting from the merchant having 0 copies of a card, it can't sell any (none to sell), but it can buy one for 100 platinum. Then, with 1 in stock, it could sell that card for 105 platinum, but it is still willing to buy another for 100 platinum too. After stocking up on some quantity, the offer changes. Perhaps, at 9 in stock, it will buy for 100 and sell for 105; at 10 in stock, it will buy for 95 and sell for 105; at 11 in stock, it will buy for 95 and sell for 100. (This transition between price points should prevent people from gaming the system by selling and buying back their own cards at inflection points.) The buy/sell values continue decreasing as the merchant collects more copies of the card. Eventually, a lower limit will be hit, with cards being bought from players for 10 platinum and sold to them for 15. (Very good deal!)

      The interface for that merchant should be about the same as the auction house, just with 1 of each available card listed at a time and only at that one buy-now price. Filtering by wishlist should be available there too.

      9) Player-to-Player trading. This really should have been implemented before the game left Beta.
    • Surly wrote:

      This is a game not an investment vehicle. The collections have value stuff helped kill it. Destroy the value to help save the game. The odds are low but trying to preserve peoples' investment vehicle makes the chance near zero.
      I respectfully disagree. I wouldn't go so far as to say I view this game as an "investment vehicle", but one of the specific reasons I backed it during the KS was precisely because the collection would theoretically have value. I intentionally have a fairly nebulous definition of value, but it's still an important aspect to my enjoyment of the game and engagement of the community. Regardless of how you feel about the KS, and KS backers, the fact is we put skin in the game before anybody else did. I specifically backed where I did as an "investment" into the game and to maintain my engagement in it. I have already seen my "investment" value reduced by the near useless nature of my Spectral Oak, lack of meaningful VIP options, and nothing discernible to show for my early faith in the company and the game. Bottom line is that the KS backers did right by Hex, and many of us tried to do right by the community by voicing our concerns when things started to go downhill. We were more invested in this game than financially only. We were the original and core community, the one that everybody speaks so fondly of during the heyday of this games popularity. I don't expect to be treated like royalty, but I certainly do expect to have my voice heard regarding the product that I bought into.

      If you want a lively game where collections have no value, then there are plenty of them out there. Hearthstone, Eternal, MTGA, etc. I would suggest that trying to turn this game into one of those clones would be the final nail in the coffin for many of us. I backed this game because I had raging nostalgia for my teenage years playing MTG. I recognized the enormous potential of moving those core elements and systems into the digital age. This game clearly carries the DNA of MTG, and one of those pieces of DNA is the TCG nature of collection building. What killed this game was the deviation from the original vision. It was the neglect of PVE, it was the ill advised catering to e-sports and the Hoogland mentality that it spawned, and it was the stonewalling of, and silence to, the very people that wanted it succeed the most.

      I know that my collection is near worthless from a $$ perspective, and I'm ok with that. But my investment in this game was more than money, it was social and in some ways emotional. My Vampire Kings mean more to me than their dollar value, they remind me of when I was "invested" in the game itself. I want the core of the game to be what it was, not another soulless watered down FTP husk. I would go so far as to say that the "collections have value" aspect was one of the original selling points, and I think that to abandon it would be a major mistake.

      Just my opinion for what it's worth.
    • Seems like you assume I am not a kickstarter backer. I am. I have been playing since alpha. I am not super active on the forums but I am in a Hex guild. I love my Vampire King’s too.

      I backed for PVE. My cards having value seemed like it would be cool. I can’t say it wouldn’t be cool to have this game take off and be in on the ground floor and have items in my inventory worth tons of money.

      However, I strongly feel that trying to duplicate the economy of paper MTG in a fully digital game is unlikely to work and it is a major factor in killing this game. I don’t believe the majority of people want to pay as much money and deal with the head aches that come along with that economy.

      Probably the biggest problem with “collections have value” is it severely limits what the company can do to attract and retain users so many more bounce off the game. Especially since the things it limits are things people expect from their digital games now a days.

      For this current version of Hex collections really don’t have value any more. I say bring on the fun, value be damned.

      TLDR, I respectfully disagree right back.
    • I'd like to see the Auction House paired with in-game merchants in the PvE setting. These merchants would sell a preset list of cards. The Merchants would actually just be another interface window into the AH. Those cards would display the lowest price available for said card, and if a player purchased that card, it would just complete the transaction on the AH. Doing this would give new players a very intuitive way to purchase cards, as well as generate a list of cards that are 'worth listing on the AH' because they'd have higher visibility and ideally be bought a lot faster.

      Most importantly, though, it'd give PvE players a route to improve their decks without leaving the PvE setting and trudging through an uncaring auction house wondering what cards they're supposed to search for.
      Old username: Aradon | Collector backer | Starting a guild for Newbies -- "The Cerulean Acadamy" -- Taking applications once guilds are implemented
    • AceBladewing wrote:

      People aren't asking for their cards to hold value similar to MTG physical cards. Don't be silly. They want their cards to retain *in-game* value relative to the cost of purchase. That's perfectly reasonable.
      My original post was a response to Pofflord, who I should have quoted, and who sure seemed to be looking at this from a secondary market MTG-esque perspective.

      Maybe I missed the point of Autzen’s post and went on my rant misguided, not sure.

      Regardless, I think there is a reason there are plenty of “lively games where collections have no value” as Autzen called them and almost no games where collections have value. The secondary market adds to many constraints to what a game company can do with the game. It also adds too many rough edges for the average game player.

      If Diablo 3 can’t work through the constraints of a secondary market successfully i just don’t see it ever working well for a small card game company. I admit that is a bit of an apples to oranges comparison but I do think it is still relevant.

      If Hex2 does ever come out and it is still the TCG model I will be very hesitant to jump on board. I think it could still work if the company was committed to ignore the secondary market and willing to step on toes. Hard to do in practice though.
    • Just want to add that I get your viewpoint (@Surly), and I'm not trying to be salty about any of it. Apologies if my post came across that way. And no, I didn't make any assumptions about your KS status, I know I've seen your name around for a long while. Only reason I brought up the KS is because THAT was the vision of the game I bought into. I supported the company and the concept of what they were doing with hard cash before there was a product. I'm just trying to make the point that I was a paying customer before there was even a product, and part of the reason for that was "value" aspect the game promised. I'm not good enough to get rich on this, or even go infinite, but I still enjoy my collection having a value to it. I'm just saying as a paying customer that I would hate to see the game pivot to a HS model. If that were to happen I would walk away and never look back.

      And just to be extra clear, I don't pretend to speak for all KS backers, just myself.
    • Anyone who still thinks Hex should continue with a similar economics and pricing model should have a reality check. It's very clear that in order to have a big community in 2020 and beyond you can't rely on just some players paying big $$$ every month. The new digital economy is very clear and players expect to get to play a game for a low cost or free at a competitive level. Hearthstone understood this from the very beginning and Hex will have to be more aggressive in order to get attention and players back. The nostalgia of "getting back my investment" is going to get Hex 2.0 to no point, and cards can still have value for promo cards (AA, AAA, and whatever comes up), which should only be available by playing the game and tournaments (Which should be very low cost or even free to join), along skins, cosmetics, etc. And like it was mentioned in other thread, VIP is the whole key to getting the loyalty back.
    • Surly wrote:

      AceBladewing wrote:

      People aren't asking for their cards to hold value similar to MTG physical cards. Don't be silly. They want their cards to retain *in-game* value relative to the cost of purchase. That's perfectly reasonable.
      My original post was a response to Pofflord, who I should have quoted, and who sure seemed to be looking at this from a secondary market MTG-esque perspective.
      Well Hex had a very stable and active secondary market as you call it for the longest time it has been running. It just went to shit when the Devs completely abandoned their game for over a year and everyone was convinced the server would should down every day with all collections being lost.

      Now things have changed... kinda. At least Devs are talking to us again and there seems to be some form of plan for the future.

      And I myself would hate this future to be jeopardized just to appease a few people around the forums.

      The Devs just have to ask themselves what this game and a potential future Hex 2 wants to be like. If their vision for the future is an MtG-like collectible cardgame, then they should under no circumstance begin to hand out cards for free or almost free and devaluing peoples collection, no matter how low or inflated the market already is.

      If their vision for the future is a cardgame without much of a collectible aspect to it, then just go ahead. But I would not have played Hex and wont play any Hex 2, if I dont have the thrill of collecting cards, hustling on the player market and earning myself a pool of cards to build decks with. And yes ultimately also having the ability to sell it all at some point. (even if its just a theoretical concept at this point)

      Well anyhow... I still dont understand why devaluing collections by Dev created auctions is even needed. I mean sure, if your collection is for crap in the first place, why not grab the freebies and finally have a great one without paying or working for it? But thats about the only reason. The better choice is to revive the player driven economy, for instance by increasing the auction time for fixed priced cards to 30 days.
    • If the assumption is made that at some point Hex is going to have a big 'relaunch' moment, whether it be a completely new game or a big patch that revamps the mechanics and adds a bunch of new stuff.... then there seems like little reason to preserve value at the expense of player engagement at this particular time. Not saying that the 'final product' shouldn't, of course. That's a discussion that there's little reason to have here. However, encouraging players to be involved with the game as a whole feels like the most important factor right now... because the success of whatever 'Hex 2.0' ends up being is largely going to depend upon whether they can rebuild any goodwill at all between now and then. *shrugs*
      Gamer. Streamer. Photographer. Writer. Anime Lover. Possessor of Stuffed Animals.

      Also... I'm terrible at this game.
    • Pofflord wrote:

      Well Hex had a very stable and active secondary market as you call it for the longest time it has been running. It just went to shit when the Devs completely abandoned their game for over a year and everyone was convinced the server would should down every day with all collections being lost.
      That didn't happen for no reason. The game had serious financial issues, unable to pay artists and tournament winners or complete the release of set 10. This business model doesn't have a particularly good track record with digital games not named MTG or Pokemon, which were already massively succesful as physical games. Just look at how Artifact is doing, despite being tied to a hugely popular IP. Meanwhile CCGs maintain far stronger playerbases, even a smaller game like Eternal has 20 times more average players in the last month than Hex, and has been doing considerably better than Hex for a long time (going by Steam; I know Hex has a standalone client and the PS4 version, but similarly Eternal is available on mobile, Xbox and is being released on the Switch soon).

      Pofflord wrote:

      If their vision for the future is a cardgame without much of a collectible aspect to it, then just go ahead. But I would not have played Hex and wont play any Hex 2, if I dont have the thrill of collecting cards, hustling on the player market and earning myself a pool of cards to build decks with. And yes ultimately also having the ability to sell it all at some point. (even if its just a theoretical concept at this point)
      If we're talking preferences, I'll just say that having played my fair share of CCGs I much prefer that model of card acquisition. Having to engage in this player-driven market of Hex has generally just been frustrating to me. Don't you just love looking at a decklist and having no idea if you're able to afford it since some of the cards aren't even listed on the AH and those that are often show up at insultingly inflated prices (there's no way I'm paying 170 plat for the only copy of Surging Wildfire that's available)? I do agree that this could be somewhat alleviated if the AH received an overhaul and became less tedious to engage with, but to me at least having to continuously monitor the market lest I get screwed by random shifts in pricing or actual manipulation is a major turnoff.

      And I don't really have hard data on this, but I'm under the impression that a majority of the playerbases of digital card games are more interested in actually playing the game than engaging in this virtual stock market. Instead, how about we have cosmetic items that can only be purchased with real money? Give the whales a way to flaunt the depth of their pockets via bling not available to the average pleb that happens to do well at a tournament and decides to turn his winnings into shinies without spending a dime. It's worked well for other games.

      Pofflord wrote:

      Well anyhow... I still dont understand why devaluing collections by Dev created auctions is even needed. I mean sure, if your collection is for crap in the first place, why not grab the freebies and finally have a great one without paying or working for it? But thats about the only reason. The better choice is to revive the player driven economy, for instance by increasing the auction time for fixed priced cards to 30 days.
      Because you won't be able to attract any kind of major audience if players have to spend tens or hundreds of dollars just to be able to play the game at a reasonable level. Even MTG Arena, which isn't particularly generous with its card acquisition system, allows people to get a decent deck for free or almost free. The only money I spent on the game was to get the welcome bundle and even just by playing rather casually I'd built Golgari Midrange back when the game went into open beta with GRN, and then turned it into Sultai after RNA. Meanwhile the only reason why I have anything resembling a decent deck in Hex is because of Snake's Refuel precon.

      Sure, if you're content with bringing Hex back to the position it was in when Doombringer came out then maybe these smaller-scale changes will be enough, but it's not like the game was doing well at that point. Obviously I can't be sure whether massively lowering the game's barrier of entry will be succesful, but I'd argue that going back to an approach that has already failed once isn't the right idea. And it's going to be difficult anyway now that important third-party sites like TCGBrowser are down (hopefully Fred can make it come back) and most of the people who were streaming the game have moved on, some like Ali Aintrazi becoming far more successful in the process. Snake's like the only person streaming the game regularly at the moment, even if it's only once a week, and you know what he did last time? He gave a user in his chat 700 plat for drafting purposes, because he understands that currently what matters is getting people to actually play the game.
    • LOVELAIN wrote:

      Because you won't be able to attract any kind of major audience if players have to spend tens or hundreds of dollars just to be able to play the game at a reasonable level. Even MTG Arena, which isn't particularly generous with its card acquisition system, allows people to get a decent deck for free or almost free.
      This used to be the case with HEX back in the day, where you would receive a free 10$-worth starting deck. I remember choosing the Shin'Hare deck and was quite satisfied with it, because there was a real synergy between the cards and such that I didn't expect. These decks were fairly functional at that time, but they wouldn't be anymore as is.

      This was the case before the AZs were implemented, since when you actually get a functional deck (with less interesting starting cards). Add to that the race-specific cards you get from the campaign and you can make a fairly functional PvE deck. Multiply that by the 8 races and you have a decent starting pool imo. If you want to progress and get a very good pool of cards, you either have to play the campaign (and the FRA in a small measure), or buy cards with real money.

      Having to actually work towards having actually good cards is something that motivates me a lot. I'm not sure giving people great decks from the beginning is gonna make them want to spend money at all.
    • I agree that giving people good decks won't necessarily make them spend money on cards, but the point, at least for now, is to build a community. And for that, we need players, and we'll not get many of them if they see that getting started requires forking over cash. And if they like the game, they'll consider supporting it, although the way monetization is being handled currently doesn't help with that.

      Again, Hex should look towards changing the way cosmetics are offered. The fact that boards, AAs and stardust can all be purchased via in-game currencies means that veterans (really, anyone with a deck and enough determination) don't need to spend real money to acquire them. What are they supposed to spend money on then, if they already have decks? Especially now when the game can't actually release new cards. It's not like Hex is currently attracting many new players who'll want to buy large amounts of plat; veterans are basically the only people left.
    • As is, I don't think HEX is really user-friendly towards new players : I remember the tutorial being a bit obscure, and it takes dedication to actually get anywhere.

      I don't know how viable that would be, but implementing mini-packs for real money could be a good way to reach people who can't afford to put 20$ at once to buy a deck.

      What I call mini-packs is like they already have in the Steam DLCs section : a bundle with cards, currency, and a little something rare or exclusive. I honestly don't know if the Steam bundles are worth their price or not, but I think they're still too expensive for an entry-level spender.

      Something among a rare or legendary card/an exclusive battleboard/an exclusive sleeve/an AA card/hell, even a draft ticket. Add to that some plat and some gold, and make it so that you could only buy once per account, and for a few bucks (I'd say 2 or 3) - and that
      could only be bought for real money.

      The post was edited 1 time, last by Yaldabaoth ().

    • The only feature I want added is a button I can push to list all my excess cards for one gold/platnum less than the current lowest bid.

      I think that feature wouldn't work for everyone but it would certainly work for me. And imagine if there were hundreds of me out there just waiting for an easy way to list our excess cards. It wouldn't be that big of deal for you guys with big collections, but for newer players it would really stock the AH with low level stuff.

      I'm actually surprised that someone hasn't written a little app to do this already. Maybe they have. Send me a copy.