No good e'er comes of leisure purposeless; And heaven ne’er helps the men who will not act

    • I've only seen a couple ingame snipets, haven't read anything more indepth. I am positively surprised, as I prefer that model to the CCG model. And we can all see how well Artifact does, what with many people here in the forums saying that Hex failed because it was a TCG instead of a CCG.

    • Vroengard wrote:

      I've only seen a couple ingame snipets, haven't read anything more indepth. I am positively surprised, as I prefer that model to the CCG model. And we can all see how well Artifact does, what with many people here in the forums saying that Hex failed because it was a TCG instead of a CCG.
      Artifact could be a procedurally generated picture of Ronald McDonald and it would make Valve $10 million.

    • Yeah that's a terrible comparison. Hex's (original) problem was lack of exposure. Companies like Blizzard and Valve get that for absolutely nothing, instantaneously, just because of their brand recognition. Literally millions of gamers will play anything they make, no matter what it is, just because of who they are.

      If you want to actually make a comparison between a TCG and a CCG in the modern market, you have to make two nearly identical games with just those mechanics different, and market them to the same groups of people with the same budgets, to see how they perform. Even then, there are variables you can't control (or even know) that can impact which gets bigger - things like going viral, which is out of anyone's control, that could get one game in the public eye over the other, all other things being equal.
      --ossuary

      "Love all, trust a few, do wrong to none."
      - Shakespeare, All's Well That Ends Well

    • Eh, if people are enjoying the game, they could invest money in it even if it's not required for events. The biggest barrier to acquiring money right now is that the game is a desert, and nobody feels safe paying into something that's clearly dying. If there are signs of activity, then people will be more likely to spend money. I think going free-draft is probably the only way Hex could possibly increases it's revenue flow right now.
      Old username: Aradon | Collector backer | Starting a guild for Newbies -- "The Cerulean Acadamy" -- Taking applications once guilds are implemented

    • AceBladewing wrote:

      People who say Hex failed because it's a TCG instead of a CCG are just plain wrong. There's reasons it failed, but that is not one of them.
      Actually, anyone who says that it being a TCG wasn't a factor is wrong.

      It's far from the only reason, and it's not the biggest reason... but it absolutely played a role. The TCG model simply requires too high a density of playerbase to work without an established property in the modern era in most cases.
      Gamer. Streamer. Photographer. Writer. Anime Lover. Possessor of Stuffed Animals.

      Also... I'm terrible at this game.

    • Ossuary wrote:

      Yeah that's a terrible comparison. Hex's (original) problem was lack of exposure. Companies like Blizzard and Valve get that for absolutely nothing, instantaneously, just because of their brand recognition. Literally millions of gamers will play anything they make, no matter what it is, just because of who they are.
      And this is exactly why HEX should never been released as a TCG, as they clearly didn't had neither the budget, and not even the faintest idea to reach the needed exposure.

      So possibly the long term future of the game was already lost at the KS, but it was kept alive by investors. (GF, Sony, whatever)

    • Goliathus wrote:

      Honestly, with their management, they would still die as a CCG. There are plenty of CCGs that failed, being CCG doesn't change much. Hex has a player base good enough for a TCG on Set 1-2, they just can't retain shat.
      It was mentioned several times, that the game really never produced profit in it's 5 years. Yeah, there were more players at Set 1-2, but that was still too low. They should have increased the player base along the years, but they didn't even tried.

      Being a CCG bring in more players to try it, as it starts "free". For every CCG that failed, there are many mediocre CCG out there still running.

      In PVP free players are basically content, as you don't have to wait that much to find a match. I recently given up an EVO gauntlet, since for multiple times I could not find an opponent for 10 minutes.

    • cainhu wrote:

      Goliathus wrote:

      Honestly, with their management, they would still die as a CCG. There are plenty of CCGs that failed, being CCG doesn't change much. Hex has a player base good enough for a TCG on Set 1-2, they just can't retain shat.
      It was mentioned several times, that the game really never produced profit in it's 5 years. Yeah, there were more players at Set 1-2, but that was still too low. They should have increased the player base along the years, but they didn't even tried.
      Being a CCG bring in more players to try it, as it starts "free". For every CCG that failed, there are many mediocre CCG out there still running.

      In PVP free players are basically content, as you don't have to wait that much to find a match. I recently given up an EVO gauntlet, since for multiple times I could not find an opponent for 10 minutes.
      Bringing in more players because its a CCG and NOT a TCG is probably the most incorrect claim.
      The only difference between a TCG and CCG is that you can trade cards or not.
      In a CCG you cant get cheap cards for gold or free cards from other people technically making it more expensive to get started.
      The free part you are talking about is wether you can buy boosters with plat or not and how many free boosters you get imo and that has NOTHING to do with being a TCG or CCG.
      If they failed at something its making the AH user friendly enough so everyone can easily post (repost) cards and made it easy for people to buy cards on the AH at start.
      If you count value however i'm pretty sure that hex is alot cheaper than some of the more famous CCG's like HS etc.
      Someone did a calculation once which showed this.

    • Frederik wrote:

      Bringing in more players because its a CCG and NOT a TCG is probably the most incorrect claim.
      The only difference between a TCG and CCG is that you can trade cards or not.
      In a CCG you cant get cheap cards for gold or free cards from other people technically making it more expensive to get started.
      Being a TCG has its implications. For example, you could not give away too much boosters/free cards, or the card values will drop and nobody will buy boosters. TCG needs a market, and flooding it with free stuff destroys it. Also, if the player base is too small, the TCG market destroys itself. Like when 0 copies are sold of a simple common, or a few sharks can manipulate prices.

      what do you mean by "free cards from other people" ? do you really thinks that it's a regular way to acquire cards? The first time I got free cards in HEX from a player is for the Pappy Jasper's Prize Patrol... and I play since the beta.

      I don't know. In MTGA and TESL I got multiple decks for free as a start, which are at least serviceable at PVP. (At HEX I got the even then subpar Hare starter... and years later a few borderline unplayable "200 cards")

      Frederik wrote:


      If you count value however i'm pretty sure that hex is alot cheaper than some of the more famous CCG's like HS etc.
      Someone did a calculation once which showed this.
      First, please : define value, and what are you speaking about.

      Do you mean how expensive to get a good top-tier PVP deck? Or how expensive to play in general? Or how easy to collect cards? Is it cheaper to top level players or casuals?

      I think HEX maybe cheaper for top-players, but for most card games the super-competitive players are the minority. Meanwhile most likely more people plays HS's Tavern Brawl than how many players HEX ever had.

    • cainhu wrote:

      Frederik wrote:

      Bringing in more players because its a CCG and NOT a TCG is probably the most incorrect claim.
      The only difference between a TCG and CCG is that you can trade cards or not.
      In a CCG you cant get cheap cards for gold or free cards from other people technically making it more expensive to get started.
      Being a TCG has its implications. For example, you could not give away too much boosters/free cards, or the card values will drop and nobody will buy boosters. TCG needs a market, and flooding it with free stuff destroys it. Also, if the player base is too small, the TCG market destroys itself. Like when 0 copies are sold of a simple common, or a few sharks can manipulate prices.
      what do you mean by "free cards from other people" ? do you really thinks that it's a regular way to acquire cards? The first time I got free cards in HEX from a player is for the Pappy Jasper's Prize Patrol... and I play since the beta.

      I don't know. In MTGA and TESL I got multiple decks for free as a start, which are at least serviceable at PVP. (At HEX I got the even then subpar Hare starter... and years later a few borderline unplayable "200 cards")

      Frederik wrote:

      If you count value however i'm pretty sure that hex is alot cheaper than some of the more famous CCG's like HS etc.
      Someone did a calculation once which showed this.
      First, please : define value, and what are you speaking about.
      Do you mean how expensive to get a good top-tier PVP deck? Or how expensive to play in general? Or how easy to collect cards? Is it cheaper to top level players or casuals?

      I think HEX maybe cheaper for top-players, but for most card games the super-competitive players are the minority. Meanwhile most likely more people plays HS's Tavern Brawl than how many players HEX ever had.
      Here is a post about the farming value's (there are more posts but cant find them right away)
      hex tcg vs HS

      Its about pack farming speed etc, doesnt even talk about the ammount of cards in a pack.
      With value i mean a total of your complete card value, how easy/hard it is to increase your collection. etc
      It means the total freedom you will have to work and extend on deck as you see fit.

    • Frederik wrote:

      Here is a post about the farming value's (there are more posts but cant find them right away)hex tcg vs HS

      Its about pack farming speed etc, doesnt even talk about the ammount of cards in a pack.
      With value i mean a total of your complete card value, how easy/hard it is to increase your collection. etc
      It means the total freedom you will have to work and extend on deck as you see fit.
      I read that article, and while I respect Gregangel it feels like a marketing article, which is also not very recent.

      I can't analyze the validity for HS, but it has very generous numbers for HEX compared to reality. for example 13.000 gold/hour for Arena means 2 runs/hour, which is unreachable for most players. Also, currently boosters listed at 46k not 39k (20% increase), and barely available for gold.
      .
      Assuming you can get 7 boosters on the constructed ladder + AA cards etc. with your starting collection is VERY off. Even in bronze league you will face momentum, candles etc regularly. Maybe somebody with really good HEX skills could reach that, but otherwise bs. Also, 120 plat/AA cards.

      And then I didn't cared about problems which are not raised by the economy model, like how it's impossible to finish an EVO in the listed 1 hour, due to lack of opponents.

      As a comparison, nowadays I play TES Legends as my main CCG. You can earn event tickets/boosters by not playing at all, with Twitch. You get daily rewards + daily quests (from 40% of a booster's price in gold to straight booster rewards). Farming the ladder is not so good (10 gold + a random card/3 wins), but ok. Farming arena is much better. I was able to unlock and farm the complete Thieves Guild campaign and about 1/2 of the Clockwork City in about 1,5 months, and those give you complete predefined playsets, not random "not playable in PVP" bullshit.

      Or we have MTGA with it's still in beta economy model. With barely playing I got 13 complete decks, a lot of boosters... you get random cards, boosters etc for basically anything you do. Wildcards are somewhat common, so you have the chance to build the deck you want.

      Also, both CCG gives you a better starting point than HEX. You can say that you can farm it fast after a point, but you start from basically 0. And there is the PVP/PVE separation, so whatever you farm from the arena is not standard legal.

      For HEX's defense, the boosters do have more cards. Mostly more of the unusable ones, but still.

      And a very important point : Both in HS and the above CCG's I listed you play actually fun modes (ladder, arena etc.) to farm, while Gregangel guide assumes you would play 90!! hours of the current Arena as you main source of income. 90 hours. Could you imagine the majority of new players doing that, before committing a honorable seppuku?

      ----

      Saying all of the above, the perception that a F2P CCG offers more free stuff is equally important than if it's true or not.