Please, a ladder for immortal

    • JeffHoogland wrote:

      ATPase wrote:

      nah, silly is thinking a "challenge friend" option can replace a q or even a ladder. By your logic we dont even need a standard ladder, just challenge your friend.
      This is a gross misrepresentation of what I said, but I think you probably know that. Have a good one I'm getting too old to spare with trolls.
      Sorry, I wasnt trying to troll you. Just asked for more convenient way to play immortal cards. Have a nice day
    • The thing is, until today, there were the same ways to play immortal. Because, frankly, the queue was almost unused and the weeklies were almost empty. And yet I didn't see a lot of threads asking for free ways to play immortal (most people wanted more competitive support, a.k.a. gauntlets or tournaments).

      With the current playerbase, there's no reason for having gauntlets + ladder for immortal. Gauntlet as the competitive on-demand option is the way to go for now. I think that what Hex needs to cater that kind of players, is daily (or every 12 hours) 4-rounds free tournaments for rock and immortal with small rewards. Again, it's not the best option, but it's free, so you can even play one match and forfeit if you would like. But that's another different story.
      Twitter: @Plotynus
    • I mean the game is dying, we can all see it. I would happily play the game if the hundreds of dollars that I placed into the game were still usable after all this time. However they aren't. I get that they need to make their money and keep pushing new cards and keep their standard ladder in prime conditions but allowing older players or in my case players that want to come back to the game a chance to play the game again would be nice and in my opinion needed to player retention.
    • Plotynus wrote:

      The thing is, until today, there were the same ways to play immortal. Because, frankly, the queue was almost unused and the weeklies were almost empty. And yet I didn't see a lot of threads asking for free ways to play immortal (most people wanted more competitive support, a.k.a. gauntlets or tournaments).

      With the current playerbase, there's no reason for having gauntlets + ladder for immortal. Gauntlet as the competitive on-demand option is the way to go for now. I think that what Hex needs to cater that kind of players, is daily (or every 12 hours) 4-rounds free tournaments for rock and immortal with small rewards. Again, it's not the best option, but it's free, so you can even play one match and forfeit if you would like. But that's another different story.
      With the size of the current playerbase there honestly is no reason to have a separate gauntlet in a separate format to begin with. The whole reason the original CG was removed was the "too many buckets"-problem. That problem is only bigger today than it was then.

      The smart move would have been to bring back standard gauntlet but integrate it in one big queue with the f2p ladder so that you can play for cosmic coins and ladder ranks and the CCS qualification while playing in a gauntlet. Suggestions on how to do this do actually exist.

      I am afraid that IG will see less and less activity and that HXE draws all the wrong conclusions out of this. Problematic are in that regard also the low prices for doombringer packs (124p in the AH atm). The result is that you lose 4 platinum when you play 4-3 in an IG. Personaly I strongly prefer playing standard ladder in that case.
    • Metronomy wrote:

      I am afraid that IG will see less and less activity and that HXE draws all the wrong conclusions out of this. Problematic are in that regard also the low prices for doombringer packs (124p in the AH atm). The result is that you lose 4 platinum when you play 4-3 in an IG. Personaly I strongly prefer playing standard ladder in that case.
      As long as AAs sell, IG will be +EV. My AA Inquisition sold 101 each, War Machinist AA sold for 198 each.
      Thats why IG needs a) different packs than last set; or b) monthly rotation of AAs, so they keep value.
    • Morwath wrote:

      Metronomy wrote:

      I am afraid that IG will see less and less activity and that HXE draws all the wrong conclusions out of this. Problematic are in that regard also the low prices for doombringer packs (124p in the AH atm). The result is that you lose 4 platinum when you play 4-3 in an IG. Personaly I strongly prefer playing standard ladder in that case.
      As long as AAs sell, IG will be +EV. My AA Inquisition sold 101 each, War Machinist AA sold for 198 each.Thats why IG needs a) different packs than last set; or b) monthly rotation of AAs, so they keep value.
      In theory yes. But I dont think those AAs will actually keep selling at all.
      Give it one more week or maybe two and then let me ask you again wether you were able to sell your promo rewards.

      You could maybe kind of solve it by a steady rotation but past experience show they dont act quick on changing promo rewards (see bash/clash).
    • Metronomy wrote:

      Plotynus wrote:

      The thing is, until today, there were the same ways to play immortal. Because, frankly, the queue was almost unused and the weeklies were almost empty. And yet I didn't see a lot of threads asking for free ways to play immortal (most people wanted more competitive support, a.k.a. gauntlets or tournaments).

      With the current playerbase, there's no reason for having gauntlets + ladder for immortal. Gauntlet as the competitive on-demand option is the way to go for now. I think that what Hex needs to cater that kind of players, is daily (or every 12 hours) 4-rounds free tournaments for rock and immortal with small rewards. Again, it's not the best option, but it's free, so you can even play one match and forfeit if you would like. But that's another different story.
      With the size of the current playerbase there honestly is no reason to have a separate gauntlet in a separate format to begin with. The whole reason the original CG was removed was the "too many buckets"-problem. That problem is only bigger today than it was then.
      The smart move would have been to bring back standard gauntlet but integrate it in one big queue with the f2p ladder so that you can play for cosmic coins and ladder ranks and the CCS qualification while playing in a gauntlet. Suggestions on how to do this do actually exist.

      I am afraid that IG will see less and less activity and that HXE draws all the wrong conclusions out of this. Problematic are in that regard also the low prices for doombringer packs (124p in the AH atm). The result is that you lose 4 platinum when you play 4-3 in an IG. Personaly I strongly prefer playing standard ladder in that case.
      Lol, but why do you want gauntlet in standard if packs are so low that it doesn't even give you good value? I can play for free and cosmic coins already. It doesn't make any sense. I know you have to complain about everything, but IG it's a good idea. If it fails, it's because of other reasons that should be addressed by other means. Also, I believe that the argument of the low playerbase only serves to stagnant things even more. With that argument Hex only needs standard and nothing else. I'm against it. The more modes the game have, in the long term it will be what set Hex apart from the other games. You need to offer diversity to cater a diverse audience, and then if the bucket problem appears, look for ways to increase the activity.
      Twitter: @Plotynus
    • I didnt come up with the "too many bucket"-problem. I just try to understand the problem behind it (and try to understand that HXE saw it as a big enough problem to remove CG in the first place) and try to find a solution. Long waiting times can be a vicious circle and be indeed harmful. Sorry if you feel bothered by me saying those things. Instead of the word "complain" you could also use the words "constructive feedback". But okay...I am used to it now sadly. But I really start to wonder why I even still bother trying..
      More problematic than the "complainers" are imo the ones who try to shut them down as such without really engaging with the arguments.

      The idea is to play for cosmic coins and ladder rank while also having the option to play in a gauntlet. All combined. In that way the CG would be an optional bonus on what I was planing to do anyways. If the most recent packs are so low then that might also be an indicator for a larger problem btw.
      If it gets to a point that the ev is not good enough anymore steps need to be taken so that people keep joining. It isnt exactly rocket science..

      I am also for more modes. Dont get me wrong. The question is about how and the priorities. What is the best solution for the current situation should always be the question.
    • the free queue had a lot of people without actual immortal decks. i don't think it should cost 500p, but maybe 20p or 50p could be enough incentive to not accidentally join with a starter deck

      500p makes more sense if the prize support is there, but it's not. they did the same old temporarily price-inflated cosmetic stuff, so after 5 days of collecting frenzy, the winning move will be to not play

      immortal gauntlet isn't really designed to get people to play immortal. it's mostly a way to sell the latest set packs, which nobody wants

      if they wanted the gauntlet to be active, the prizes would be in plat or the entry fee would be in packs

      the packs were already 130p and trending downward before gauntlet. gauntlet reduces prices further. we already saw this when constructed gauntlet was in the game before. the supply/demand was slightly different (because people were actually drafting back then), but the impact is basically going to be similar
    • I'm seriously never going to understand why people complain that the luxury hobby they play isn't making them enough money.. I'm unendingly flummoxed.. it's like...

      Dude A "Well this sphincter bleach tastes awful... The inhumanity I must complain! They need to fix this asap blargle blargle."

      Me: "But... You're not supposed to eat that. It's not food."

      Seriously you want better 'value' Try to get immortal gauntlets to be the only way to get packs that have left the store... Oh. Wait.. Cant do that. Then the collectors will complain about how their fuschia hemorrhoid cream is only awful because they can't sell their stockpile of it for profits.
    • VargrBoartusk wrote:

      I'm seriously never going to understand why people complain that the luxury hobby they play isn't making them enough money.. I'm unendingly flummoxed.. it's like...

      Dude A "Well this sphincter bleach tastes awful... The inhumanity I must complain! They need to fix this asap blargle blargle."

      Me: "But... You're not supposed to eat that. It's not food."

      Seriously you want better 'value' Try to get immortal gauntlets to be the only way to get packs that have left the store... Oh. Wait.. Cant do that. Then the collectors will complain about how their fuschia hemorrhoid cream is only awful because they can't sell their stockpile of it for profits.
      Meh... don’t be so anal-ogy... don’t you know their stance on backend business?
      We’ve almost got our maximum EV possible. Regardless of the EV earned.

      One day at my girls wedding I might think about this moment and laugh while I eat some cake I paid for. But likely I won’t even care then.
    • NicoSharp wrote:

      Meh... don’t be so anal-ogy... don’t you know their stance on backend business?We’ve almost got our maximum EV possible. Regardless of the EV earned.

      One day at my girls wedding I might think about this moment and laugh while I eat some cake I paid for. But likely I won’t even care then.
      My choice of comparisons was possibly deliberate...
      Though I should probably point out that my issue is not with people who can make a profit playing a game more the idea that somehow the game owes them a reasonable profit and get upset when said profit, which is a bonus, is in any way lessened.
    • Personaly I dont even like the format so I dont care much about the ev personaly.

      But its really not complicated. When the entry fee is too high in comparison to the possible rewards people do not enter (or at least not many). That has nothing to do with feeling entitled or wanting to complain. It is really super simple. Thats just how those things work. Always has been..always will be.

      Personaly I would be fine with gauntlet handing out set1-4 packs as rewards. That wouldnt contradict any past statement. ICS already hands out old packs. The entire problem is that those packs are worth even less (at least set 1 + 2). So that actually might not be a solution.

      You wanna know what I always get flummoxed about ? People complaining about the "complaining" instead of addressing the actual issues. But then again why address anything? It doesnt change a thing. HXE is not talking to us anyways. So it is all a bit pointless.

      The post was edited 4 times, last by Metronomy ().

    • i keep seeing people say that 4-3 isnt profitable, but they keep failing to add the 20+ platinum you get for each primal proc chance. so yeah, even without AAs going 4-3 nets you a profit of about ~50p without the AAs at the current prizes for boosters( ~120p normal / ~1200p primal)
    • Ferur wrote:

      i keep seeing people say that 4-3 isnt profitable, but they keep failing to add the 20+ platinum you get for each primal proc chance. so yeah, even without AAs going 4-3 nets you a profit of about ~50p without the AAs at the current prizes for boosters( ~120p normal / ~1200p primal)
      3-3 is profitable, but with current Immortal Gauntlet you risk getting 0-3, as one person playing deck you have horrible matchup with can ruin your entire run, since you can get paired with same person again, again and again. Won't touch it.
    • JeffHoogland wrote:

      ATPase wrote:

      nah, silly is thinking a "challenge friend" option can replace a q or even a ladder. By your logic we dont even need a standard ladder, just challenge your friend.
      This is a gross misrepresentation of what I said, but I think you probably know that. Have a good one I'm getting too old to spare with trolls.
      not really he used your words in the exact same way you did. You just don't like his answer. I 100% agree new players should be in standard, and we all agree immortal needed proper support. I agree with you proper support is a gauntlet, but anyone who isnt competitive still has very little immortal "support", and the one way they do have is extremely inefficient. Although I personally dont play pve if done correctly(FRA only rewards very specific decks, so having the ability to use all cards is meaningless. It is basically competitive pve) it is an efficient way to let casuals play with rotated cards.
    • Biggest problem HEX has right now is probably that it is more appealing for constructed players than limited players. Too many packs are being created without a limited playerbase to suck them out of circulation, resulting in low pack prices and thus low EV and therefore also lower participation in the immortal gauntlet. This is relates to the issue of meeting too many players the same time. This goes for most constructed formats in HEX. MTGO/MTGA does not have the issue as their playerbase consists of a large amount of limited players, which are likely not gonna jump ship for HEX.

      It is probably time to revise the business model to accomodate for that. If the playerbase does not support the system, a company needs to adapt. Best way to do that, I do not know... But HXE needs to react to that... It is clear that relying so strongly on pack sales is not working with the playerbase right now. And by the chance of repeating myself, among the revision there also needs to be more monetizing of cosmetic stuff. I really do not see the point in not making use of the low hanging fruit of offering AA shards, AA champions and sleeves directly in the store. Hell even the new pack sleeves are not animated while the shards are. Such a low hanging fruit to just offer a "premium sleeve" in the store for plat....
    • Metronomy wrote:

      Personaly I dont even like the format so I dont care much about the ev personaly.

      But its really not complicated. When the entry fee is too high in comparison to the possible rewards people do not enter. That has nothing to do with feeling entitled or wanting to complain. It is really super simple. Thats just how those things work. Always has been..always will be.

      Personaly I would be fine with gauntlet handing out set1-4 packs as rewards. That wouldnt contradict any past statement. ICS already hands out old packs. The entire problem is that those packs are worth even less. So that actually would not be a solution.

      You wanna know what I always get flummoxed about ? People complaining about the "complaining" instead of addressing the actual issues. But then again why address anything? It doesnt change a thing. HXE is not talking to us anyways. So it is all a bit pointless.
      Oh.. Joy... It's like a logical fallacy smorgasbord... I'm tired, cranky and can't sleep so lets break it down...

      Well.. Okay so technically the first one isn't a fallacy... Argument from hypocrisy is still awkward... Who doesn't love a good 'It's not like i care about it/It doesn't affect me... But I'm going to spend time and energy talking because.. Whatever.'

      Always has been always will be. A personal favorite variation of the bandwagon fallacy. The massive subjectivity of the situation doesn't really detract from the usual rebuttal of the sun always revolved around the earth... Until we found out it didn't.

      Now we get to something I can actually understand and admittedly disagree with, but this one is worth discussing. You aren't paying to get prizes. <At least not in an official sort of way though many people feel this is what they are really doing.> They are not stakes, this isn't poker. In fact the difference is often used specifically to ensure that these types of things aren't subject to various gambling laws. You are paying for the right to play until you lose... Three? games I think or win five that's it. Anything you get from playing is a nice little bonus. You can immediately turn around and sell your reward I suppose. Plenty of awards and trophies could likely be melted down and sold for scrap but its not really the intent. <again official vs Real comes into play>

      As to your perplexity... It's not simple in the slightest. Its quite complicated as many people have different motivations for arguing and debate. However I'll do my best to give you my reasons. In simple terms it's self interest. This forum being at least skimmed and perused by people with an official capacity in the company when i feel a concern someone else put forth is incorrect or worse utter nonsense I feel obligated to show that dissenting opinions do in fact exist that way brainpower, time, and personal energy instead if twiddling with prize support they could maybe... Oh I don't know what are some things I'd want... Get the rogue out for PVE, fix the insufferable auction house or at least bring back the show cheapest only option, get some sort of way to import and export decklists. You see? We have different 'actual' issues despite the saucy little akimbo comboed fallacy of relative privation/ tu quoque towards the end. Oh and also like i said earlier.. Can't sleep. Clowns will eat me.
    • VargrBoartusk wrote:

      Metronomy wrote:

      Personaly I dont even like the format so I dont care much about the ev personaly.

      But its really not complicated. When the entry fee is too high in comparison to the possible rewards people do not enter. That has nothing to do with feeling entitled or wanting to complain. It is really super simple. Thats just how those things work. Always has been..always will be.

      Personaly I would be fine with gauntlet handing out set1-4 packs as rewards. That wouldnt contradict any past statement. ICS already hands out old packs. The entire problem is that those packs are worth even less. So that actually would not be a solution.

      You wanna know what I always get flummoxed about ? People complaining about the "complaining" instead of addressing the actual issues. But then again why address anything? It doesnt change a thing. HXE is not talking to us anyways. So it is all a bit pointless.
      Oh.. Joy... It's like a logical fallacy smorgasbord... I'm tired, cranky and can't sleep so lets break it down...
      Well.. Okay so technically the first one isn't a fallacy... Argument from hypocrisy is still awkward... Who doesn't love a good 'It's not like i care about it/It doesn't affect me... But I'm going to spend time and energy talking because.. Whatever.'

      Always has been always will be. A personal favorite variation of the bandwagon fallacy. The massive subjectivity of the situation doesn't really detract from the usual rebuttal of the sun always revolved around the earth... Until we found out it didn't.

      Now we get to something I can actually understand and admittedly disagree with, but this one is worth discussing. You aren't paying to get prizes. <At least not in an official sort of way though many people feel this is what they are really doing.> They are not stakes, this isn't poker. In fact the difference is often used specifically to ensure that these types of things aren't subject to various gambling laws. You are paying for the right to play until you lose... Three? games I think or win five that's it. Anything you get from playing is a nice little bonus. You can immediately turn around and sell your reward I suppose. Plenty of awards and trophies could likely be melted down and sold for scrap but its not really the intent. <again official vs Real comes into play>

      As to your perplexity... It's not simple in the slightest. Its quite complicated as many people have different motivations for arguing and debate. However I'll do my best to give you my reasons. In simple terms it's self interest. This forum being at least skimmed and perused by people with an official capacity in the company when i feel a concern someone else put forth is incorrect or worse utter nonsense I feel obligated to show that dissenting opinions do in fact exist that way brainpower, time, and personal energy instead if twiddling with prize support they could maybe... Oh I don't know what are some things I'd want... Get the rogue out for PVE, fix the insufferable auction house or at least bring back the show cheapest only option, get some sort of way to import and export decklists. You see? We have different 'actual' issues despite the saucy little akimbo comboed fallacy of relative privation/ tu quoque towards the end. Oh and also like i said earlier.. Can't sleep. Clowns will eat me.
      the legal reason hex gives is not the motivator, I'm not sure why you are talking about the legal reason. Very few people if anyone is paying platinum for a gauntlet because they see it as a ticket to play. They are paying for the possibility to get more back than they paid. That is what drives gauntlet queues. People who are negative in gauntlets stop playing not because they aren't having fun. They stop because they are on the losing end of a bet/investment.

      Edit: this is the reason most people say you cant have standard gauntlet anymore since ladder takes all the fish away making the weakest sharks the new fish in a cycle that bleeds players until gauntlet is 1 player and all the former sharks now profit from ladder.

      The post was edited 1 time, last by NeroJinous ().