​Siege, PVE, rambling, a touch of positivity and a serious question​

    • ​Siege, PVE, rambling, a touch of positivity and a serious question​

      Whoa, that's a hell of a title, hope this doesn't turn in to one of those long winded deals where I lose interest in typing it and stop halfway through...


      Anyway, where to begin? Ah, right, the beginning.


      Siege. What can I say about i that hasn't been said? It can safely be said that my opinion mirrors that of much of the hex community, that is to say it falls somewhere between "thumbs down emoji" and "question marks over the head emoji". I won't get in to specifics because I don't want this thread to get derailed by discussion about it. That being said I do have some things to say about the mode (even positive ones, shocking, I know.) but first! A bit of rambling backstory.

      I, like many, have been playing hex since the alpha days, I backed it because I love TCGs but what made HEX stand out was the promise of a PVE environment (oh boy, a TCG with co-op and raids!) and that has always been my primary interest in the game. When the second adventure zone launched I set myself a goal: I would complete the campaign 4 times with each race to get all of their race unique cards and open enough boosters to get a full set of every single campaign card. A few legendaries aside, across a handful of packs I am very, very close to that goal. It's taken ages and it stopped being fun some time ago but this ritualistic grind is a goal I set for myself so it I can't fault the game for that. This goal also had a secondary purpose, it seems like something that would take ages and so would be an interesting way to kill time on PVE while I waited for the next adventure zone and/or raids to farm.

      At one point it became obvious I may well complete my quest twice over before I saw more content that was actually interesting to me so I took a break for several months, knowing (at least I thought I knew that at the time) that after about half a year then there would be more to do in the PVE space. There wasn't and I was wrong but I didn't lose hope entirely because new sets meant new mercs and new mercs made the old campaign grind somewhat interesting again.

      For a time.

      Safe to say, HEX isn't fun for me right now but it is still somewhat interesting, grinding the campaign over and over is akin to solitaire for me, something I do it kill time, a handful of encounters here and there while I take a break or while I feign interest in a slowly moving conversation.


      And then siege came along, I lost most of my interest in it in about a day, when it became obvious I would be a rather expensive standard legal deck to enjoy attacking and at the same time not be able to use my beloved mercs to defend (which was a real shame because I have many, many strange and thematic decks using merc mechanics I would like to see people play against). I also was upset that the rewards were un-tradeable AND you were required to wager to attack or defend (not even a fun mode? at least let me set my own prize).

      But then, Lurker that I am, I stumbled across a thread on these very forums, a group of enterprising individuals were purposely losing games to keeps with suicidal decks to raise the value of keeps and then beating them to quickly gain rewards. My honest first thought was "way to go guys, fight the power" but didn't join in myself for fear of punishment... but that changed the more I thought about it, I was only vaguely interested in the rewards but I was very interested in the theory crafting...

      Thoughts like "what is the fastest way a deck can kill itself?" and "what is the fastest way a standard legal deck can kill a champion that is not resisting..." eventually lead me to joining the SS channel to test my theories and then something amazing happened.


      I started having fun. Like, actual fun, playing hex. A game that had been at best a distraction at worst a chore, was actually pretty fun in this strange, possibly illicit bastardization of a game mode I didn't like. It might have been the deck building or the collaborations with other people for once but I did enjoy my time doing it. Oddly, it was like there was finally co-op in hex and it was nice being on the team.


      ...


      I won't go on to say that is how it should stay and all ethical debate is a topic for another thread. I won't be lament the passing of how it briefly was, no doubt over time it would become tedious as well if siege had stayed in that incarnation, I just want to say that I liked it, for a bit, even if that is not what it was meant to be.

      There's your daily dose of positivity, some random lurker enjoyed a few hours of HEX.



      So, now, serious question time:

      Am I done here?

      I like HEX, hell, I love parts of it and I really want to see what it will become but I have been having the feeling that the things I have been waiting for (raids, guilds, co-op, any mode that is more than just 1v1) are just never going to happen. I left the game for months and came back to see no progress toward those goals, I dug through past news updates for something, ANYTHING that discussed the progress and found nothing. When I can't even find teasers, it that tells me that either there is nothing to tease or there is zero interest in teasing because they don't believe there is audience who cares (for the record, I do, so tease me please) after all, what sane company wouldn't want to keep their customers interested, right?

      So I am asking for anyone that knows anything, is nothing coming? Am I waiting for waiting for something that will never happen? Is it time to move on?




      TL;DR: You didn't miss anything interesting.
    • Love this story. Thanks for sharing. I imagine there are a LOT of players in the "I just want some fun PVE" boat. That is, after all, a huge part of the dream that was Hex was sold on.
      --ossuary

      "Love all, trust a few, do wrong to none."
      - Shakespeare, All's Well That Ends Well
    • Just want to touch a bit on the fun you did have trying to find the best optimization of how a deck can kill itself the fastest, which I’ve heard from a few people. This is at the root of what makes PvE interesting, giving you interesting problems and allowing you to solve them in fun unique ways. There’s a sense of co-operation when you try to come up with answers to these with friends, guildmates, or maybe random strangers on a chat as you have done. And yes, it gets somewhat boring after having solved the puzzle, but the nature of TCGs is that there are so many permutations out there that there should be no limit to providing these experiences . However as you say, no one should be blamed for doubting whether HxE themselves can provide these at a steady clip when they have so much on their plate.

      So that’s why some of us hope that player generated content can be the answer to this problem, aka “Keeps” which is the closest we had to this concept in the KS. There are many people on this side of the game who’d enjoy creating puzzles as much as solving them, they just need to have the tools and right system to be able to create them. Currently the most obvious hurdle is the system in place that completely wrecks anyone who would even dare to create interesting casual puzzles due to the gambling element, the lose once and its removed element, and just the general vibe in Siege where everyone is optimizing for power instead of creativity.

      It’s not even that HxE isn’t capable of making tweaks to this, the team themselves have repeatable, free Sieges that allow for this first big hurdle to disappear. This alone won’t just create some diverse Siege paradise however. We also need some more flexibility and options in the creator suite as I mentioned in a few different threads. HxE doesn't need to do this all at once, they can slowly phase it in, but I think if they do players such as yourself can begin to have those good feelings more frequently than the rare occasions where you're able to have them today. But until HxE even signal that this is a direction they're interested in or are aiming towards, I don't blame you for losing optimism.
    • Bootlace wrote:

      This is at the root of what makes PvE interesting, giving you interesting problems and allowing you to solve them in fun unique ways. There’s a sense of co-operation when you try to come up with answers to these with friends, guildmates, or maybe random strangers on a chat as you have done.
      I agree with this completely. Just imagine if you could do this for co-op raids in an actual guild... There would be none of this bickering on the forum. Everyone would be having fun with their friends and spreading word-of-mouth about the game. I would spend all my free time playing with new random friends, where we could showcase our wacky decks to each other and find fun combos and surprising synergies, while chatting happily and already planning our next assortment of decks. Winning or losing would not even matter. Sigh.
    • Casual pve, coop modes, raids, keep attack/defense (ie player-provided pve dungeons), guilds, custom tournaments (supported in-client), wild west mode, alternative ways to challenge friends (the whole kitchen table thing), where is all of it. Outside of the coop modes, I don't see how the other things would be that hard to implement with the systems already in the game. And don't make any of it pay-to-enter. You provide the sandbox for free, we pay you for the toys to play with in that sandbox. This isn't a hard concept.

      Siege could have been not only an infinite content generator, it would double as advertisement for the cards used by other players. You see a keep with cool cards, you'll want to have those cards.
    • Mornox wrote:

      You provide the sandbox for free, we pay you for the toys to play with in that sandbox.
      This is... Shit, this is it. I cannot believe how well you just described the entire essence of what this game should be (in my opinion) in one short sentence. Simple when you boil it down. My entire strategy from the beginning has always aimed at exactly this. Give me a fun sandbox with gradually increasing content to roll in and I will happily spend hundreds of dollars in a feverish quest to collect every single item than can be used for fun. I'm so stupid that I am still collecting everything in sight just for the snowball's chance in hell such a sandbox will materialize one day.
    • Personally I wish it was possible to trade for the siege contents simply because I'd love to be able to play around with those components for casual use. I'm having a ton of fun putting silly decks and theme challenges together for the express purpose of trying to give other players a fun experience and my mindset is e.g. 'I'd like to have the sisters battle board because that would be a cool tileset for a dungeon.' and 'I'd like a playset of siege golems to make an Adamanth Citadel castle deck.' etc.

      The lion's share of my Hex collecting has always been in service of the idea of eventually being able to use all those tools to make fun things and I'm always wanting to have lots of tools to work with. I'll pull up the collection editor and do a search for a silly keyword for a theme and see if I can mash together all the cards that come up with it to make something interesting out of it an then figure out if it's anywhere decent after the fact.
    • Blackwood wrote:

      I'll pull up the collection editor and do a search for a silly keyword for a theme and see if I can mash together all the cards that come up with it to make something interesting out of it an then figure out if it's anywhere decent after the fact.
      Ha! I do this as well. However, sometimes I start by going through my equipment first (recommended, as some very unassuming cards have insane equipment that enable total built-around themed archetypes). But our approach is the same. Smash cool things together, see if it can be made a deck. I also have a weird fetish of creating tribal decks for every single race/subtype that has enough troops (every troop must be of said type - no exceptions) and then slowly upgrading it when new cards are released. This makes new sets much more enjoyable for me, as I can get hyped for a new Fae or Nibblin or something, even if they are common. And you never know when a new piece of equipment makes a tribe go over the top :)

      I will say one positive thing about siege by the way. I love the new algorithm that drops only stuff you don't have a full set of. It makes every siege pack exciting. I would love to have this with FRA so much it's not even funny. I can also pretty much promise that when I have all the functional items from the sacks, I will put up a keep most of the times when I log in. These will not be cutthroat either, not because of some saintly benevolence, but because I love creating stupid decks, and I will make these thematic and probably pretty easy. I honestly don't care about cosmetic stuff anymore, but I can passively grind the animated shards when I have nothing else to collect. 1000 gold is nothing to me, so why not. It benefits both me (enjoyable deckbuilding, an excuse to dig deep into my PvE collection) and newer players (easy kills, I'm not even gonna test these decks), which is pretty cool I guess.
    • i just dont get it why they cant change siege to something like this:

      1. scrap that gold / plat entry / hord - make it free
      2. reward gold at same ration like FRA or campain.... nobody cares for too much gold in the system (hell, there are countless chest to spin that nobody spins because nobody can afford it)
      3. let us make 10 keeps or more that auto respawn when defeated
      4. let us use all the cards/equipment/mercs to attack
      5. let defenders build decks with non collectebel cards (the orange ones) and mercs of course (and even - if you are fancy - the FRA / campain encounters)

      ...

      PROFIT and FUN and easy to implement

      and Player created PVE....


      it is that simple!!!

      i dont get it HEX, really i dont get it....
    • I have given the idea of keeps a considerable amount of thought myself and one area I have always gotten stuck on is how to incentivize attacking them. It's actually fairly tricky without the ante system.

      You want a couple things from keeps.

      One, you want people to want to attack them, thus there must be a reward for them to earn for attacking.

      Two, you have to reward people for defending them, so everyone does not simply make easy sieges to attack and get the rewards.


      The ante system does this well, in fact it's an elegant solution, it makes it so losing either on attack or defense costs you, thus it is in no one's best interest to fail. It's not a bad idea.

      However the mode does not exist in a vacuum, and there are other factors to consider. Thus, the ante... sucks. Currently, they are trying to incentivize people to play that mode by making certain things only available to those who do so. They are also trying to drive sales by making the attacking decks a standard format.


      The rewarding of playing the mode will always be tricky, the ideal solution is that you create a situation where neither participant has to pay to play it but still be rewarded for doing so... and I just don't know how to do that without creating a system that could easily be gamed to the detriment of the game's economy, barring making the mode work something like the campaign.

      However to drive sales there are already systems that exist to do this in play in other games. One simple solution is to make building a keep cost money. Either a lot of gold or a little platinum and to keep it accessible you make an initially small siege very cheap so anyone can put them up but then make upgrading them and increasing their size (and hopefully subsequent reward structures) more expensive.


      But all these unknowns could be avoided entirely if the mode was simply playable without a cost or a reward and of course without so many restrictions. Just call it a beta, let people play it and listen to feedback while you work on integrating it in to the game's economy. complicated long-term solutions to those issues can be avoided until the gameplay is solid.



      ...and I think it goes without saying but I will say it anyway: there would not be so much vitriol and anger surrounding the mode if it WAS a beta version and you made it clear that it was. People are a lot more forgiving when something is a work in progress.
    • It's really not that tricky at all.

      Hell, some of us would just attack to be able to try new things out, but I'll tell you how it could work - in the perfect world (IMO):

      Defender:
      • Siege Defense Creator Goes to Post a Defense
      • Siege Defense Creator Chooses their 3 decks, and 3 taunts.
      • Siege Defense Creator Chooses their 3 passives, (other bonuses may apply to sleeves and battleboards associated to the deck/champion/mercenary)
      • Siege Defense Creator Toggles their desired Theme: Thematic / Hardcore / Puzzle / Easy / Etc.
      • Siege Defense Creator adds a Defense Description: Free text
      • Siege Defense Creator chooses duration: 8 Hours / 16 Hours / 1 Day / 3 Day / 7 Day
      • Each Duration has an associated cost: 1,000 gold / 3,000 gold / 5,000 gold / 15,000 gold / 30,000 gold (or option to list for equivalent in plat)
        • Penalty of all gold/plat entry lost if creator takes down the Siege Defense early
      • Defenders have an archive of the last 30 replays of players attacking them, that they can watch.



      Modified Rule Set Generalizations:
      • Sieges no longer lock up for only one user when they are attacked
      • Sieges no longer break down when they are defeated
      • HXE pays out a bit to support this as a PvE sandbox mode (Slightly lower than Frost Ring Arena encounters individually, with some scaling progressive rewards)
      • Gold is rewarded to attackers and defenders for wins (this includes marginal progress for attackers / each encounter)
      • Siege Sacks are rewarded to attackers and defenders for wins (this includes marginal progress for attackers / each encounter)
      • Siege Sack distribution rate is based on play and wins (marginal included) alone. (It could be generous on both ends, I don't see why not?)
      • Passives and other Bonuses mentioned for Defender could be new content added to make defenses tougher, and open up PvE cards and equipment, and Mercenaries for attackers


      Attacker:
      • Attackers Chose 1 of two modes: Randomly Generated / Personal Choice
      • Attackers Chose desired Theme to attack: (some may have slightly lower payouts, like Easy)
      • Attackers pay no fees to attack
      • Randomly Generated is like Mario Maker - 10 Sieges are Randomly queued together. There are progressive Gold and Siege Sack rewards for each one defeated.
        • There could be some progressive pve or equipment drops from adventure zones or frost ring here for large progressive wins, to reward success.
        • There could be a "Life" or squad lives system here. Before the run may end as failed.
      • Personal Choice would have static gains, but would let an Attacker choose specific defenses to attack.
      • At the end of a Siege - The attacker can leave a comment, and/or a rating, and/or a TIP to the Siege Defense creator (Single Card, and/or Single Currency (Like quick Mail))
      • Defenses are sorted by Rating / Theme

      The post was edited 2 times, last by NicoSharp ().

    • attt wrote:

      i just dont get it why they cant change siege to something like this:

      1. scrap that gold / plat entry / hord - make it free
      2. reward gold at same ration like FRA or campain.... nobody cares for too much gold in the system (hell, there are countless chest to spin that nobody spins because nobody can afford it)
      3. let us make 10 keeps or more that auto respawn when defeated
      4. let us use all the cards/equipment/mercs to attack
      5. let defenders build decks with non collectebel cards (the orange ones) and mercs of course (and even - if you are fancy - the FRA / campain encounters)

      ...

      PROFIT and FUN and easy to implement

      and Player created PVE....


      it is that simple!!!

      i dont get it HEX, really i dont get it....
      I will assume this is ignorance and not trolling and I will answer seriously:

      1st mistake: Your proposal has exactly 0 profit for the company HXE.
      2nd mistake: As long as PS4 port exists, you will probably never see attackers using PvE cards and equipment.

      The PS4 port can be summarized a follows: HXE did a very costly surgery in order to cut its left leg so it could park in the disabled park slot and get a social pension help, or however that works. Some good things, overall, though the parking is only used sparingly and the pension won't really show until a few (lot) years ahead. However, it can now never play football again and it can kiss its dreams of becoming a national level dancer goodbye.
    • Vroengard wrote:

      I will assume this is ignorance and not trolling and I will answer seriously:
      1st mistake: Your proposal has exactly 0 profit for the company HXE.
      2nd mistake: As long as PS4 port exists, you will probably never see attackers using PvE cards and equipment.

      The PS4 port can be summarized a follows: HXE did a very costly surgery in order to cut its left leg so it could park in the disabled park slot and get a social pension help, or however that works. Some good things, overall, though the parking is only used sparingly and the pension won't really show until a few (lot) years ahead. However, it can now never play football again and it can kiss its dreams of becoming a national level dancer goodbye.
      PS4 players can't also play campaign and arena.Does anyone think it's a good sign for AZ3 and future raids?

      The PS4 release created 2 groups that can't communicate in game,with one group that has no access to any PVE.Thus any development will be prioritized for what both groups can play and pay money for:PVP and unbalanced siege,and even that gets problematic implementation.Again no communication makes it's worse than it should be.