PvE Dead?

    • Well in this game, Sleeves and Battle boards are 'skins'. They could also sell alternate character portraits in PvE. So saying it's hard to sell skins when the chase items for many events are skins, seems a bit unconvincing.

      I'd even pay Plat for 'Challenge books' for each race or class. Imagine PvE goals based around decided design and play. 'Complete 30 fights where the majority of your deck is Artifacts' for Dwarves, as an example. When the books are complete you unlock an enhanced racial or class perk and/or exclusive loot. Buy another, repeat process. I'd be convinced to buy them for 1-200plat and probably shell out 500 if the books gave you enough to do.
    • Darklight wrote:

      Well in this game, Sleeves and Battle boards are 'skins'. They could also sell alternate character portraits in PvE. So saying it's hard to sell skins when the chase items for many events are skins, seems a bit unconvincing.

      I'd even pay Plat for 'Challenge books' for each race or class. Imagine PvE goals based around decided design and play. 'Complete 30 fights where the majority of your deck is Artifacts' for Dwarves, as an example. When the books are complete you unlock an enhanced racial or class perk and/or exclusive loot. Buy another, repeat process. I'd be convinced to buy them for 1-200plat and probably shell out 500 if the books gave you enough to do.
      To simple.

      And you are correct, champion skins (Different character portraits, animations) and AA shards should of been introduced the first day. People are paying 20 bucks for some skins on Fortnite. Then doing it a week later.

      PVE is beyond easy to monetize. The current company behind HEX does not want to make money is the only fathomable reason to their approach.
    • I would've paid 5-10 bucks for a human/elf/coyotle ranger 'skin' with a bird pet. No question. I've been saying that since the ranger was first announced, and I stand by it.

      There are a LOT of things they could've done to monetize pve, they just made the conscious choice not to do so.

      And what little they did do they hid behind gatcha style gambling mechanics. Like mercenaries. I'm sure there're people who would've bought certain mercenaries for 2-5 bucks straight up if they'd released them.

      Hex has this strange perception that you need to charge a lot for a cosmetic... which is the opposite of reality. You'll easily a hundred times the purchases on a 2 dollar cosmetic than you will on a 10 dollar one, unless the 10 dollar one is absolutely phenomenal. Hex should've been releasing small, low-impact cosmetics for 1-2 dollars from day one of the pve campaign... not medium impact cosmetics for 10-20 dollars months later...
      Gamer. Streamer. Photographer. Writer. Anime Lover. Possessor of Stuffed Animals.

      Also... I'm terrible at this game.
    • Eraia wrote:

      I would've paid 5-10 bucks for a human/elf/coyotle ranger 'skin' with a bird pet. No question. I've been saying that since the ranger was first announced, and I stand by it.

      There are a LOT of things they could've done to monetize pve, they just made the conscious choice not to do so.

      And what little they did do they hid behind gatcha style gambling mechanics. Like mercenaries. I'm sure there're people who would've bought certain mercenaries for 2-5 bucks straight up if they'd released them.

      Hex has this strange perception that you need to charge a lot for a cosmetic... which is the opposite of reality. You'll easily a hundred times the purchases on a 2 dollar cosmetic than you will on a 10 dollar one, unless the 10 dollar one is absolutely phenomenal. Hex should've been releasing small, low-impact cosmetics for 1-2 dollars from day one of the pve campaign... not medium impact cosmetics for 10-20 dollars months later...
      One point of contention: Low price cosmetics thrive on a large playerbase and HEX has already shown itself -incredibly- apathetic towards the casual community, which would be the financial engine behind an idea like this.
    • Well i play Browsergames and Online-RPG's for some years now. Maybe some of you know the old Browserprg#s..text&storybased...they tend to sell premiumtime with lazy&comfort-feature that did not touch the balance.

      With a guildsystem, a stronghold or crafting they could do a lot here...let say you have 1 or 2 slots for building/crafting..but you can pay for "lazy" slots that allow you to queue orders, i would pay for such features.

      Or payed Adventure-modules, some games even made contests to let player design modules, the winner got a nice reward and more important for many fans they where mentioned at the module...it was like a surprise-egg--3 for 1, Contest made some players happy, company get a module with little work, the nre module make more players happy...

      As i said, i am pretty green but the more i read/learn about Hex..the more problems i have to understand the current state of Hex PvE/TCG
    • Eraia wrote:

      I would've paid 5-10 bucks for a human/elf/coyotle ranger 'skin' with a bird pet. No question. I've been saying that since the ranger was first announced, and I stand by it.

      There are a LOT of things they could've done to monetize pve, they just made the conscious choice not to do so.

      And what little they did do they hid behind gatcha style gambling mechanics. Like mercenaries. I'm sure there're people who would've bought certain mercenaries for 2-5 bucks straight up if they'd released them.

      Hex has this strange perception that you need to charge a lot for a cosmetic... which is the opposite of reality. You'll easily a hundred times the purchases on a 2 dollar cosmetic than you will on a 10 dollar one, unless the 10 dollar one is absolutely phenomenal. Hex should've been releasing small, low-impact cosmetics for 1-2 dollars from day one of the pve campaign... not medium impact cosmetics for 10-20 dollars months later...
      They made the conscious choice not to because they realized fairly early on that they cannot make a decent AI...it's that simple. The only way they can offer AI 'challenge' is by giving the AI starts in play BS/OP cards and we all know how fun that is. The AI cannot even defend itself against 1 human opponent even with it's stupid bonuses most of the time, imagine how quickly it's going down against 3 in a raid setting. The game has been engineered as a PVP game which needs a human brain as a pilot and will never offer a meaningful and satisfying experience when piloted by an AI...there is just too much complexity to ever hope for the correct play.
    • TheBlackCrypt wrote:

      They made the conscious choice not to because they realized fairly early on that they cannot make a decent AI...it's that simple. The only way they can offer AI 'challenge' is by giving the AI starts in play BS/OP cards and we all know how fun that is. The AI cannot even defend itself against 1 human opponent even with it's stupid bonuses most of the time, imagine how quickly it's going down against 3 in a raid setting. The game has been engineered as a PVP game which needs a human brain as a pilot and will never offer a meaningful and satisfying experience when piloted by an AI...there is just too much complexity to ever hope for the correct play.
      I've bought cosmetics for easy pve games before. You just need something fun and I'll pay for it. Hex's mechanics are good enough that if they gave me a few interesting 'endless' ways to play the game in PvE(things like evo dungeon, a branching randomized dungeon for pve characters, or the like) and cosmetics to buy... I'd have both played and bought for a long time.
      Gamer. Streamer. Photographer. Writer. Anime Lover. Possessor of Stuffed Animals.

      Also... I'm terrible at this game.
    • TheBlackCrypt wrote:

      They made the conscious choice not to because they realized fairly early on that they cannot make a decent AI...it's that simple. The only way they can offer AI 'challenge' is by giving the AI starts in play BS/OP cards and we all know how fun that is. The AI cannot even defend itself against 1 human opponent even with it's stupid bonuses most of the time, imagine how quickly it's going down against 3 in a raid setting. The game has been engineered as a PVP game which needs a human brain as a pilot and will never offer a meaningful and satisfying experience when piloted by an AI...there is just too much complexity to ever hope for the correct play.
      This is true for almost any game though. Strike and Raid bosses in Destiny 2, for example are huge bullet sponges because having an AI controlled Guardian as your opponent would be far too easy. And the boring ones are ONLY bullet sponges, with periods of invincibility. The better bosses are ones with unique mechanics. So far, Hex has mainly built their version of bullet sponges.

      The satisfaction in Destiny raids is solving a puzzle collectively with friends; not beating an AI over the head in Crucible. The gunplay is the same in PvP and PvE, just like the card game mechanics are in Hex.

      The failure isn't in poor AI: it's in the lack of imagination and implimentation to make interesting puzzles that a group of players can solve together.

      Like, a raid boss that has protection from all colors except one that rotates based on something that players need to discover. Or a branching path raid dungeon, where each path has a series of different challenges so each teammate needs to specialize their deck to which path they want to take. Or raids that require specific races in your decks. An orchestra raid on a Vennen nursery, for example.

      If Hex's plan for raids, all along was 'PvP but one side is AI' that plan was the failure, no matter how good the AI could be, without interesting mehanics and puzzles to solve.
    • Darklight wrote:

      TheBlackCrypt wrote:

      They made the conscious choice not to because they realized fairly early on that they cannot make a decent AI...it's that simple. The only way they can offer AI 'challenge' is by giving the AI starts in play BS/OP cards and we all know how fun that is. The AI cannot even defend itself against 1 human opponent even with it's stupid bonuses most of the time, imagine how quickly it's going down against 3 in a raid setting. The game has been engineered as a PVP game which needs a human brain as a pilot and will never offer a meaningful and satisfying experience when piloted by an AI...there is just too much complexity to ever hope for the correct play.
      This is true for almost any game though. Strike and Raid bosses in Destiny 2, for example are huge bullet sponges because having an AI controlled Guardian as your opponent would be far too easy. And the boring ones are ONLY bullet sponges, with periods of invincibility. The better bosses are ones with unique mechanics. So far, Hex has mainly built their version of bullet sponges.
      The satisfaction in Destiny raids is solving a puzzle collectively with friends; not beating an AI over the head in Crucible. The gunplay is the same in PvP and PvE, just like the card game mechanics are in Hex.

      The failure isn't in poor AI: it's in the lack of imagination and implimentation to make interesting puzzles that a group of players can solve together.

      Like, a raid boss that has protection from all colors except one that rotates based on something that players need to discover. Or a branching path raid dungeon, where each path has a series of different challenges so each teammate needs to specialize their deck to which path they want to take. Or raids that require specific races in your decks. An orchestra raid on a Vennen nursery, for example.

      If Hex's plan for raids, all along was 'PvP but one side is AI' that plan was the failure, no matter how good the AI could be, without interesting mehanics and puzzles to solve.
      I disagree, if your opponent cannot play the game to a certain standard regardless of whether it's a human or AI then unless you are looking for easy wins to gain a reward what's the point of playing? I am sure with the depth of cards available and the potential for what isn't that Raids would have contained all sort of puzzles and interesting mechanics but once again, if the AI sits there playing resources and killing it's own troops turn after turn then whats the point? I honestly believe that a big reason why PVE has been left to languish is because they realized that it's impossible to make an AI that can play the game effectively with the breadth of cards/effects/hero powers/etc that the game offers which is (should be) ever growing.

      They took a big risk with Siege as it's exposed the AI for what it is....lines of code that cannot come close to making the same correct decisions that a human mind can make.
    • I can agree with the Siege part. Giving imperfect AI the pilot seat for literally any possible deck is probably too much for it.

      But a carefully constructed raid deck that has a set number of cards in it can be more or less pre-programmed. HexEnt should be able to predict what will be more or less meta against the boss and 'train' it to effectively counter. And if something breaks that predicted meta, well that's half the fun of PvE: finding the unexpected solution.

      Programming the AI is something that players can't really do with the Siege AI. 'Always attack with your Annilatrix unless opponent has a prismatic that can block and kill, or losing the blocker will cause lethal on opponent's attack' should be a simple enough flag to check, for a boss deck.

      I think the AI shows it's weakness in Siege because there are too many potential variables. The attacker can have literally anything (Standard) and the defender can have literally anything, period. Asking a computer program designed by a small team to be intuitive and creative is asking too much, obviously. Asking a computer program to perform a series of actions, based off of predetermined priorities in a deck of only sixty cards is a much easier request.
    • Therein lies the problem, the possibilities are endless for raiders and worse, the synergy that could exist between 3 decks opens the AI up to even more abuse.

      Your Annilatrix example is possibly missing 'unless opponent has cards in hand and open/multiple different resources' (does it take the risk sometimes, all the time or not at all?) and goodness knows what else and that is just for 1 single troop card....the real difficulty comes from combinations of cards combined with the current board state.

      There is just too many variables to consider outside a scripted scenario imo....hence Siege misplays thread and that would only be compounded by raids with 3 different decks.

      I guess it all stems from a vision from a person with zero technical skills/knowledge put forth as something that was totally achievable but the reality was the polar opposite.

      Once again, this is just my opinion and would do back flips if I was proven wrong.
    • TheBlackCrypt wrote:

      Darklight wrote:

      TheBlackCrypt wrote:

      They made the conscious choice not to because they realized fairly early on that they cannot make a decent AI...it's that simple. The only way they can offer AI 'challenge' is by giving the AI starts in play BS/OP cards and we all know how fun that is. The AI cannot even defend itself against 1 human opponent even with it's stupid bonuses most of the time, imagine how quickly it's going down against 3 in a raid setting. The game has been engineered as a PVP game which needs a human brain as a pilot and will never offer a meaningful and satisfying experience when piloted by an AI...there is just too much complexity to ever hope for the correct play.
      This is true for almost any game though. Strike and Raid bosses in Destiny 2, for example are huge bullet sponges because having an AI controlled Guardian as your opponent would be far too easy. And the boring ones are ONLY bullet sponges, with periods of invincibility. The better bosses are ones with unique mechanics. So far, Hex has mainly built their version of bullet sponges.The satisfaction in Destiny raids is solving a puzzle collectively with friends; not beating an AI over the head in Crucible. The gunplay is the same in PvP and PvE, just like the card game mechanics are in Hex.

      The failure isn't in poor AI: it's in the lack of imagination and implimentation to make interesting puzzles that a group of players can solve together.

      Like, a raid boss that has protection from all colors except one that rotates based on something that players need to discover. Or a branching path raid dungeon, where each path has a series of different challenges so each teammate needs to specialize their deck to which path they want to take. Or raids that require specific races in your decks. An orchestra raid on a Vennen nursery, for example.

      If Hex's plan for raids, all along was 'PvP but one side is AI' that plan was the failure, no matter how good the AI could be, without interesting mehanics and puzzles to solve.
      I disagree, if your opponent cannot play the game to a certain standard regardless of whether it's a human or AI then unless you are looking for easy wins to gain a reward what's the point of playing? I am sure with the depth of cards available and the potential for what isn't that Raids would have contained all sort of puzzles and interesting mechanics but once again, if the AI sits there playing resources and killing it's own troops turn after turn then whats the point? I honestly believe that a big reason why PVE has been left to languish is because they realized that it's impossible to make an AI that can play the game effectively with the breadth of cards/effects/hero powers/etc that the game offers which is (should be) ever growing.
      They took a big risk with Siege as it's exposed the AI for what it is....lines of code that cannot come close to making the same correct decisions that a human mind can make.

      I can understand your opinion but you should take into mind that for other people some aspects might be more important then the "raw quality" of the playing standard.
      A nice story combinded with good lore&nice presentation can be as or more important to have fun. Or being the "Hero(team) of your own Story"...
      I have no problems with "the setup favors the KI-player" as long as it is in line with the "lore&ingame-logic".

      Or just being able to play cooperative instead of competativ

      For me it's also important that i have a hard time the luck&PtW factor of payed Hardcore-PvP. If i play PvP and choose Chess or a shooter...the influence of luck is small to non-existent...for a TCG..with a ressourcesystem like this...i can have a good deck, can be a good player and loose because i got bad draws at the starting hand+Mulligan(s)...it's ok for PvE..but for payed matches...