Ali Aintrazi's first "Hex Minute" episode - Iconoclash and cosmic coins rewards discussion

    • JeffHoogland wrote:

      Metronomy wrote:

      "Can also make money on demand with constructed on MTGO." <- Exactly my point what the main issue is for Hex.
      You could never do this with Hex. At one point you could make in game currency, but selling it for cash is such a low conversion rate that it wasn't worth anywhere near what it was on MTGO.

      Metronomy wrote:

      I havent played MTGO in recent years but I actually played it a long long time before that. Unless things have changed drasticaly I would gues MTGO is more expensive.
      You'd be guessing wrong. Stop guessing. Stop making stuff up. It is ok to say "I don't know" or "I'm unsure" and defer to people with more experience than yourself. MTGO and Hex have similar entry prices for constructed, but Hex has far more risk. Once you buy a Hex deck you are locked into it. Hope you like it. Once I have a MTGO deck I can turn it into another in minutes with little loss or back into cash.

      Metronomy wrote:

      Constructed aside. Where do you think is it more feasible to go infinite playing limited? MTGO or Hex ?
      I have no idea. See how fucking easy it is to say that?
      I never really played much limited in either client. I haven't been talking about limited though. I've been talking about constructed.

      I think the people predicting the death of MTGO really must be doing it to make themselves feel better. MTGO is probably more likely to be here 5 years from now than Hex at the current rate both are going.
      Well I played a lot of limited in mtgo and hex.
      Never quite achieved going infinited in mtgo. Achieved it right away in Hex. So thats not just a gues from my side.

      I made over 2k € by selling cards in 2 years with Hex. Its not 'that' impossible to make money. But sure..probably would have been more if I played with the same winrates mtgo (although the competition field for top heavy tournaments is smaller in Hex and the differnece is due to resell value difference on the seconday market).
      Mostly my point isnt necessarily about resell value but about grinding any kind of rewards by on-demand constructed.
      Your point about resell value is a fair one though. It is certainly an important factor for players.
      But HXE cant really do much to change this I would argue.

      You say that cards are worth essentialy nothing when you sell them but then you complain that buying cards is too expensive.
      I know what you are saying (official AH versus seconday market) but the point is, is that there is a compromise in between.

      Educated guesses is a valid approach. Thats not the same as making stuff up (and I am astonished you use these words).
      Same goes for comparisons out of individual experience (as I laid out).
      You can compare EVs under a given winrate. Thats just math. I would argue that the EV in limited (by comparing ingame value and not resell value) is higher in Hex than in MTGO.
      I am too lazy to look up the current MTGO numbers but when I was playing the EV was lower than it is now in Hex.
      What Biz writes suggests that it hasnt changed that drastic.
      The EV in constructed for things like bash depends on the value of the promo card. So thats not so easy to calculate. It is very top heavy.
      The data you gave about mtgo leagues are not sufficient enough to make a direct comparison since you would need to look at all win brackets to calculate ev.

      And then you can compare deck prices. A quick google seach tells me that the mtgo deck prices for standard are on a comparable level to Hex.
      But again...AH prices in Hex are very much inflated I would argue. When you compare the secondary market I would argue deck prices are cheaper in Hex. To be fair I am not sure how to factor in renting decks. Call it a gues.


      Finally I would suggest that you dont get so riled up about everything. There is no reason to escalate anything.

      The post was edited 3 times, last by Metronomy ().

    • Eraia wrote:

      Metronomy wrote:

      But HXE cant really do much to change this I would argue.
      They can design the game in a way that doesn't scare so many people off before they ever get the chance to enjoy the game.
      They're working on this. Let's hope to see a full revamp of the new user experience and not just a character which says 4 things during your first games.

      Hex is a small game, any change in the playerbase is noticeable, for good or bad. So, while I don't think MTGO is dying or whatever, I do believe that with well done advertising and some improvements in both the first-user experience and the reward structure of the game, you can get new players. While you won't be even near to MTG or HS levels, it would surely impact a lot in the game.
      Twitter: @Plotynus
    • Plotynus wrote:

      They're working on this. Let's hope to see a full revamp of the new user experience and not just a character which says 4 things during your first games.

      Hex is a small game, any change in the playerbase is noticeable, for good or bad. So, while I don't think MTGO is dying or whatever, I do believe that with well done advertising and some improvements in both the first-user experience and the reward structure of the game, you can get new players. While you won't be even near to MTG or HS levels, it would surely impact a lot in the game.
      Until they tell us officially that this is something they're actively working on... and not just have a brief mention on a stream... I don't really believe it's coming. I hope it is. But... my cynicism is getting the better of me.
      Gamer. Streamer. Photographer. Writer. Anime Lover. Possessor of Stuffed Animals.

      Also... I'm terrible at this game.
    • haven't spent a dime in hex and have 3-6m plat worth of stuff i dont mind being devalued or w/e as long as there are people to play...i could cash out and get like $5, but i love playing hex and i hope something can be done so price of playing is competitive to mtgo. i think more can be done in that regard. i just dont have any idea or suggestion.
    • Yasi wrote:

      haven't spent a dime in hex and have 3-6m plat worth of stuff i dont mind being devalued or w/e as long as there are people to play...i could cash out and get like $5, but i love playing hex and i hope something can be done so price of playing is competitive to mtgo. i think more can be done in that regard. i just dont have any idea or suggestion.
      Probably starting to pay a dime for the game you love that much, would be a good start....
    • Morshadoom wrote:

      Yasi wrote:

      haven't spent a dime in hex and have 3-6m plat worth of stuff i dont mind being devalued or w/e as long as there are people to play...i could cash out and get like $5, but i love playing hex and i hope something can be done so price of playing is competitive to mtgo. i think more can be done in that regard. i just dont have any idea or suggestion.
      Probably starting to pay a dime for the game you love that much, would be a good start....
      If he didn't put a dime in the game and made that, that means that someone else did. So, indirectly, he kind of helped the game. That's why the game needs grinders.
      Twitter: @Plotynus
    • Morshadoom wrote:

      Probably starting to pay a dime for the game you love that much, would be a good start....
      The amount of platinum that Yasi has been responsible for leaving the ecosystem is ENORMOUS.

      He plays so much limited.

      In order for the platinum he uses to exist, someone has to have spent money. He is ensuring that platinum leaves the economy which is a big positive as it maintains the value of the platinum by counteracting inflation, even if he doesn't directly spend money for it.
      Gamer. Streamer. Photographer. Writer. Anime Lover. Possessor of Stuffed Animals.

      Also... I'm terrible at this game.
    • Morshadoom wrote:

      Yasi wrote:

      haven't spent a dime in hex and have 3-6m plat worth of stuff i dont mind being devalued or w/e as long as there are people to play...i could cash out and get like $5, but i love playing hex and i hope something can be done so price of playing is competitive to mtgo. i think more can be done in that regard. i just dont have any idea or suggestion.
      Probably starting to pay a dime for the game you love that much, would be a good start....
      Errrr, no? Hex offers the possibility for the best players to go infinite without having to pay. It's their business model.

      Besides, players are not charities. They buy (give money to Hex) product. Unless product quantity and quality improve, not buying is the only way to convey a message to the people in charge.
    • Bootlace wrote:

      1) Because they're a publicly traded company with shareholders, they're much more likely to kill a product like MTGO if they felt it wasn't a smart business move to continue. Even if it's not killing, the lack of development on MTGO and the now investment in MTGA is a direct example of what can happen when a big company is involved (especially one that is as 'profit-oriented' as Hasbro). Meanwhile a private company/game like Hex can keep being produced at break-even for much longer without any pressure and scrutiny, especially with a CEO/founder like Cory at the helm. So this can actually be a positive, and so far Cory has backed this up with making player friendly moves at nearly every juncture despite being put in tough situations due to the lawsuit, publisher changes, or even the insane burden that has been the Kickstarter campaign.
      The behavior and motives of publicly-traded companies is somewhat predictable, so players can have reasonable confidence that the game will remain based on publicly-available information.

      On the other hand you can't expect prospective players to be experts about Cory and have any idea what could cause him to change his mind. We also don't know what would happen if Cory left for whatever reason. Add in the possibility that financial factors could force their hand, and there's a lot of uncertainty.

      (A recurring theme here: you're looking at this from the point of view of someone who have extensive knowledge of Cory and CZE/HXE. Try looking at this from the perspective of someone who knows little or nothing about them.)

      Bootlace wrote:

      2) a) and b) is pretty much the same in MTGO so I don't know why you would use that as an argument why Hex is in a terrible position to pick up these players.
      Not quite, since MTGO does have an official cashout method (redemption).

      That said, overall you're right that MTGO doesn't fully support RMT either. But it doesn't need to, because being a TCG isn't their major selling point. Instead, their main sales pitch is that MTGO is where you can play Magic online - something which no competitor can let you do.

      If Hex (or any other game) wants to position themselves as the choice for those who want the TCG experience rather than the CCG experience, they will need to address the issues I raised.


      Bootlace wrote:

      3) And when you explain to them that it was a one time move made by the former publisher due to local legal restrictions with months of advance notice and that current support will do everything possible to get the account back - the sensible ones among them will conclude that it's not something to worry about going forward.
      a) You likely won't have a chance to explain anything to them because they won't stay to listen.
      b) It actually happened twice. If they didn't learn from it the first time, why would you think they learned from it the second time?
      c) They could have worked around the legal restrictions but chose not to.

      In short: you are willing to give them the benefit of the doubt. You can't expect players who don't have a prior relationship with CZE/HXE to do the same.
    • Ducklett wrote:

      Is limited EV in MTGO really that bad?
      According to GoatBots, you need 63% win rate for a meager 0.17 tix(equivalent of 17plat here) profit in draft. 54% for sealed but many people like draft more than sealed, especially a sealed format that makes you play 9 matches with the same pool. Also, bots dominate the market, so you cannot play the market. 0.17 is 0.17. Here, I can always open some money cards and work some auction house magic if I want to, at least until they improve the AH eventually.

      Edit: Also, draft is 15 tix and sealed is 24 tix. You will need to have a larger bankroll for the initial variance than here.
    • Goliathus wrote:

      Ducklett wrote:

      Is limited EV in MTGO really that bad?
      According to GoatBots, you need 63% win rate for a meager 0.17 tix(equivalent of 17plat here) profit in draft. 54% for sealed but many people like draft more than sealed, especially a sealed format that makes you play 9 matches with the same pool. Also, bots dominate the market, so you cannot play the market. 0.17 is 0.17. Here, I can always open some money cards and work some auction house magic if I want to, at least until they improve the AH eventually.
      Edit: Also, draft is 15 tix and sealed is 24 tix. You will need to have a larger bankroll for the initial variance than here.
      It's not that simple to calculate for Draft since you can choose how aggressively you raredraft.
    • Mach wrote:

      It's not that simple to calculate for Draft since you can choose how aggressively you raredraft.
      The calculator did account for the average price of the set's cards. Also, cards aren't that expensive in MTGO. According to MTGGoldfish, only 7 cards are 4.50 tix and above. Others are 1 tix and below. Unless you open up one of the seven, which is a rare occurance, the average price of the calculator is a pretty fair number. Furthermore, rare draft is going to kill your chance of attaining the near-impossible 63% win rate so you really don't rare draft unless you hit the money card.
    • Goliathus wrote:

      Mach wrote:

      It's not that simple to calculate for Draft since you can choose how aggressively you raredraft.
      The calculator did account for the average price of the set's cards. Also, cards aren't that expensive in MTGO. According to MTGGoldfish, only 7 cards are 4.50 tix and above. Others are 1 tix and below. Unless you open up one of the seven, which is a rare occurance, the average price of the calculator is a pretty fair number. Furthermore, rare draft is going to kill your chance of attaining the near-impossible 63% win rate so you really don't rare draft unless you hit the money card.
      The calculator just uses the EV of a pack. It obviously can't account for your strategy.

      I'm not saying you blindly pick all rares. A smart drafter will consider, for each pick, whether the value of the rare is greater than the prize EV increase from picking the best card for your deck. A dollar here, 50 cents there, adds up to a noticeable difference in EV for a smart drafter.
    • Mach wrote:

      The calculator just uses the EV of a pack. It obviously can't account for your strategy.
      I'm not saying you blindly pick all rares. A smart drafter will consider, for each pick, whether the value of the rare is greater than the prize EV increase from picking the best card for your deck. A dollar here, 50 cents there, adds up to a noticeable difference in EV for a smart drafter.
      Okay, sure. I am not bothered enough to actually math that out, you are free to do it if you want and share to the world what % will one need to infinite for being a smart drafter. I personally don't think it matters a lot. Draft is 700P here and I don't really grab any rare below 200P. 1 tix out of 15 tix is very minimal tme.