What is it with digital tcgs/ccgs and imbalance between aggro and control?

    • Norwind wrote:

      Goliathus wrote:

      That deck is actually way stronger in the past and is the one I am disgusted with the whole time. 6 life Dark Heart has been disgusting to me for 4 sets and is far more bannable then than now. Don't believe me? DH is 1000+ last set and 500+ now because it's not T1 anymore. While part of it is the rotation coming soon, but the 5 mana Diamond Glory thing stays on its pricing of 800 until now because it is still T1, so we can argue that rotation has not affect T1 cards yet and DH price drop is because it's not T1 anymore.
      Dark Heart is a very special case, as the large influx of AA DH's from account leveling has also had a big say in the price drop. I agree with everything else though :)
      I can see that too. But DH has gone down to around 800-900(and I expect it to stay there) and then suddenly back to 1100-1200 when it is dominant in the meta again in the last set. Now it's abandonware at 600..
    • [PSN]h0tNstilettos wrote:


      I thought Extinction was a blood card. Black has always had good early game control, which it does in Hex.
      Your post was "control cards are not as good as they are in physical tcgs, while aggro cards are far stronger", not "control cards are not as good in certain colours as they are in physical tcgs".

      You were wrong in your initial post, and try to reframe the argument to make it sound otherwise doesn't change that reality.
    • Evilgm wrote:

      [PSN]h0tNstilettos wrote:

      IIn Hearthstone, a Wrath of God cost 8 resources, in Hex it cost 6. In Magic it cost 4.
      Nope, it cost 4 in Hex as well. The current variant costs more because it does more and because it fits the current environment, just as has been seem many times in Magic.

      Evilgm wrote:

      [PSN]h0tNstilettos wrote:

      I thought Extinction was a blood card. Black has always had good early game control, which it does in Hex.
      Your post was "control cards are not as good as they are in physical tcgs, while aggro cards are far stronger", not "control cards are not as good in certain colours as they are in physical tcgs".
      You were wrong in your initial post, and try to reframe the argument to make it sound otherwise doesn't change that reality.
      I didn't reframe anything. You quoted a very specific part of the topic where I was talking about white. You are reframing it to make it sound like you quoted the topic. Well I put your original comment into this post to show what you replied to. The only mistake I may of made, which isn't even what you're pointing out, is that the 8 mana Wrath of God from Hearthstone is a Warlock card which is Hearthstone's black. So clearly I'm using other colors in my example. If that's what makes you feel that way, then yeah my mistake. But the topic itself that you are referencing is referring to the game in general as I do not single out a color. If I wanted to just play blood then I wouldn't of even needed to post this, and why would anyone think a game is not imbalanced if 1 color can deal with aggro?
    • Why do you feel that white specifically needs a 4-mana wrath? It has plenty of 'destroy attacking troops' effects, and a pretty fair 5-cost 'destroy all attacking troops' spell, and plenty of cheap troops itself.

      You're talking about the game in general, and control in general, and then insist that it has to be in white?
      Old username: Aradon | Collector backer | Starting a guild for Newbies -- "The Cerulean Acadamy" -- Taking applications once guilds are implemented
    • Obsidian wrote:

      Why do you feel that white specifically needs a 4-mana wrath? It has plenty of 'destroy attacking troops' effects, and a pretty fair 5-cost 'destroy all attacking troops' spell, and plenty of cheap troops itself.

      You're talking about the game in general, and control in general, and then insist that it has to be in white?
      I said before that white was one example. I never said it was the only color that lacked early game control that has no restrictions. Read the topic please. The cards you are pointing out are too weak and restrictive compared to physical tcgs. The 5 mana Sunlit Sentence is not early game and only kills attacking troops. It doesn't board wipe since most people won't attack with everything if they suspect you have it and the required resources open and it's too slow as the broken aggro decks will kill you before then. I also explained in the topic that if the aggro cards weren't so broken in Hex, then the restrictive early game control might be enough. It is not normal in any tcg for aggro to be so broken that they have multiple troops 9/9 or higher by turn 3 or an army of 5/5 flyers by turn 4. Single target control is not enough unless you have one to play every turn and with no restrictions to what it can kill. In most tcgs these restrictions exist to make them less broken and for variety, but in a game where the early game aggro troops are this broken, the only way to stand a chance is to have control cards equally as broken OR to have early game mass board control without drawbacks in more colors than just black like physical tcgs have. Clash of Steel doesn't help because they still get to keep their 10/10 Leprechaun, or 5/5 flying candlekin.

      Hex has pretty weak board control cards in general. While black in Magic have had cards like Chainer's Edict for 2 resources where opponent sacrifices a creature, which plays around spellshield or can't be targeted by something, Hex has give target troop -4/-4. They even have an outright destroy any troop for 3 resources in Magic, but in Hex they are more restricted. Again, these restrictions would not be a big deal if aggro could not have multiple giant creatures by turn 3 or an army of medium sized flying candles. The only people that would defend this are either people that run the current broken aggro decks, or people that are not veteran tcg players that haven't played many tcgs. The power descrepency between aggro troop strength vs. board control strength is massive. Not even close. It is extremely lopsided in favor of the aggro decks. One has a 96% win rate (DW momentum), the other around the upper 80 something (candles). The only way they can lose is if they get screwed and you don't, and even then they can still win sometimes. You know it's bad when they still consistently win against almost pure control decks. Not even the old broken face hunter decks from Hearthstone was this bad, which eventually was addressed after a way longer period than a physical tcg would of took to address.

      The post was edited 2 times, last by [PSN]h0tNstilettos ().

    • Largashbur wrote:

      How about Arcing Light? Costs 2 and candles become cute 1/1 troops and the momentum troops lose all momentum they've built up.
      I ran Arcing Light in the reserves of my DW ramp. It did no good because I never had it at start of game, and you don't even have it first game at all unless you're so desparate you mainboard it, which would waste deck slots against decks it's useless against. Arcing Light is more of a tech card than a card you mainboard that could be useful against anything.

      EDIT: Just realized how I made that sound, so I came back to clarify more for anyone that thinks "Umm, that's the nature of tcgs is not always getting what you want when you need it." Arcing Light is the only early game control card for white that I agree is viable against the current top 2 aggro decks, but my original concern is more for general control because specific tech control cards would not be useful the first game since they would be in reserves. So assuming you lose first game, you'll only have 1 game to play with it in deck hoping that you have it by turn 2, and there won't be a 2nd game to play with it unless you happen to win that 2nd game.

      The post was edited 2 times, last by [PSN]h0tNstilettos ().

    • h0tNstilettos, you're clearly an intelligent person and I'll take your word that you are quite experienced at similar games. However, with respect, you're quite new at Hex, and some of your meta-game evaluations are mistaken. To let you know my Constructed credentials, so to speak, I have seven Bash top 8s (which last I checked is tied for the most) and three Cosmic Crown Showdown top 8s (also tied for the most).

      One of the decks you are describing as an overpowered aggro deck isn't really an aggro deck at all. It would be much easier to handle if it were, actually. DW Momentum typically plays four 1 cost troops, four 2 cost troops, three or four 5 cost troops, and two or three 7 cost troops. That's nearly as many high cost troops as early drops. DW is in truth a mid-range deck with loads of card advantage. Leprechaun Artist, Shamrock the Goldfather, Exalted Pathfinder, Palm of Granite (when it isn't bugged), Eldurathan's Glory and Eternal Seeker all represent card advantage. When you look at the entire deck, it's got a fairly high curve. It does, however, have a an infrequent nut draw of Righteous Waxshot into either a second Waxshot or an Artist into a turn 3 Palm of Granite. DW Momentum isn't aggro. It's the bully keeping aggro largely out of the meta-game.

      The real problem with Control decks is not that they can't beat aggro - that's fairly simple. The problem is they can not at the same time beat aggro (Blood/Ruby Gnolls, Mono-Ruby Aggro, Sapphire/Diamond Tempo, and Ruby/Diamond Illuminate), beat DW Momentum, and beat the various combo decks that Doombringer enabled. I'm very much a Control player at heart, but decks are attacking from too many different angles currently. It might be possible if there were only one combo deck, but there are at least 4 that are competitive.

      The first and most widely played is Sapphire/Wild Taking Turns, as in this version that MTGCollector took to the top 8 of the most recent bash: hexpvptools.net/tournament/1126956890/player/3974061. This deck is very consistent and difficult to disrupt and typically combo-kills from turn 5 to turn 7. It is extremely difficult to build a control deck to consistently beat this deck that is also reasonably good against the field at large. If you are primarily from an MTG background, it may be helpful to think of it as similar in its play patterns to Titanshift or similar Valakut decks in modern.

      The second is Sapphire/Ruby/Blood Sisters, blog.battleshopper.com/deck-tech-srb-sisters/. NephilimArmy made the top 8 with this one in the most recent bash. It is somewhat comparable to a worse version of CopyCat with Saheeli from Standard recently in MTG.

      The third is four shard reanimator, which MustacheMagic made the top 8 with two weeks ago, hexpvptools.net/tournament/1126865205/player/3934130. This deck can deal 20 damage on turn 5 with the two card combo of Doombringer Kha and Mordrum's Gift, or it can play out as a fairly good mid-range deck.

      The fourth is Mono-Sapphire Auctioneer Combo, which is more fragile than the others, but still very dangerous. Parni made the top 8 with it, hexpvptools.net/tournament/1126315093/player/3781113.

      It's beating all of these at once that is the problem for control, not just beating aggro.

      But if aggro has been giving you trouble, there are several cards that are excellent at hating it out. Winter's Grasp, Soul Severance, Return to Cinder, Scars of War, Eldurathan's Glory, Wayfaring Sharpshooter, Wax Sacrament, Cheap Shot, and Massacre are really good. Verdict of the Ancient Kings and Withering Gaze are great against RD Illuminate also.
    • ThufirHawat wrote:

      h0tNstilettos, you're clearly an intelligent person and I'll take your word that you are quite experienced at similar games. However, with respect, you're quite new at Hex, and some of your meta-game evaluations are mistaken. To let you know my Constructed credentials, so to speak, I have seven Bash top 8s (which last I checked is tied for the most) and three Cosmic Crown Showdown top 8s (also tied for the most).

      One of the decks you are describing as an overpowered aggro deck isn't really an aggro deck at all. It would be much easier to handle if it were, actually. DW Momentum typically plays four 1 cost troops, four 2 cost troops, three or four 5 cost troops, and two or three 7 cost troops. That's nearly as many high cost troops as early drops. DW is in truth a mid-range deck with loads of card advantage. Leprechaun Artist, Shamrock the Goldfather, Exalted Pathfinder, Palm of Granite (when it isn't bugged), Eldurathan's Glory and Eternal Seeker all represent card advantage. When you look at the entire deck, it's got a fairly high curve. It does, however, have a an infrequent nut draw of Righteous Waxshot into either a second Waxshot or an Artist into a turn 3 Palm of Granite. DW Momentum isn't aggro. It's the bully keeping aggro largely out of the meta-game.

      The real problem with Control decks is not that they can't beat aggro - that's fairly simple. The problem is they can not at the same time beat aggro (Blood/Ruby Gnolls, Mono-Ruby Aggro, Sapphire/Diamond Tempo, and Ruby/Diamond Illuminate), beat DW Momentum, and beat the various combo decks that Doombringer enabled. I'm very much a Control player at heart, but decks are attacking from too many different angles currently. It might be possible if there were only one combo deck, but there are at least 4 that are competitive.

      The first and most widely played is Sapphire/Wild Taking Turns, as in this version that MTGCollector took to the top 8 of the most recent bash: hexpvptools.net/tournament/1126956890/player/3974061. This deck is very consistent and difficult to disrupt and typically combo-kills from turn 5 to turn 7. It is extremely difficult to build a control deck to consistently beat this deck that is also reasonably good against the field at large. If you are primarily from an MTG background, it may be helpful to think of it as similar in its play patterns to Titanshift or similar Valakut decks in modern.

      The second is Sapphire/Ruby/Blood Sisters, https://blog.battleshopper.com/deck-tech-srb-sisters/. NephilimArmy made the top 8 with this one in the most recent bash. It is somewhat comparable to a worse version of CopyCat with Saheeli from Standard recently in MTG.

      The third is four shard reanimator, which MustacheMagic made the top 8 with two weeks ago, hexpvptools.net/tournament/1126865205/player/3934130. This deck can deal 20 damage on turn 5 with the two card combo of Doombringer Kha and Mordrum's Gift, or it can play out as a fairly good mid-range deck.

      The fourth is Mono-Sapphire Auctioneer Combo, which is more fragile than the others, but still very dangerous. Parni made the top 8 with it, hexpvptools.net/tournament/1126315093/player/3781113.

      It's beating all of these at once that is the problem for control, not just beating aggro.

      But if aggro has been giving you trouble, there are several cards that are excellent at hating it out. Winter's Grasp, Soul Severance, Return to Cinder, Scars of War, Eldurathan's Glory, Wayfaring Sharpshooter, Wax Sacrament, Cheap Shot, and Massacre are really good. Verdict of the Ancient Kings and Withering Gaze are great against RD Illuminate also.
      I appreciate your mostly respectful and constructive post, though I wouldn't call my meta analysis "mistaken", but rather my experience has been different as a mostly constructed standard ladder player. I haven't played in too many tournaments other than some arcanum vault and rock tournaments. I've been wanting to compete in some Clashes/Bashes but they start too early and I'm not willing to sacrifice 8 hours of sleep to be up by 10am. Been trying to push sleep schedule backwards so I can, but I always lose track of time. I'm going to address some of the things you point out.

      I'm fully aware that DW momentum is not a "true aggro" deck and what cards are in the deck. It's a ramp deck. Ramp decks can typically get to midrange and late game cards faster than non-ramp decks via being able to ramp up their resources through cards that gain them more than 1 resource a turn. They typically don't have troubles playing stuff at any point in the resource curve. My experience with DW momentum has been different than yours. You're not wrong, but neither am I. Our difference is that in about 80 to 90% of the games I play against DW momentum result in them getting the 1, 2, 3 god opening, which for you happens infrequently. For me it's been the opposite. Therefor it is aggro for me. So maybe I just have terrible luck.

      Now for those combo decks and the extent of my knowledge of them...

      The decklist for that SW Taking Turns deck looks like a Sugar Rush deck. I've never heard it called Taking Turns deck, or is there some card difference I don't notice that makes once different from the other? As for the reference to Magic decks, I haven't played Magic in many years. I played it about a decade from the 90s until about 2007. I still read up on it here and there and have played the Duels games on PS3 which are terrible since you have to play with premade decks. I might be jumping ship from Hex to Magic Arena when it comes to PS4, though I love the artwork in Hex better than Magic. Magic is dark fantasy art, while Hex is a healthy mix between dark grimey art and light hearted vibrant colored art, including cute artwork.

      The sisters deck I'm not sure if I've ever seen it. I only review top decks from the tournament types I play in and top ladder decks.

      That reanimator deck I have beaten with my DW ramp deck (it's not a momentum version even though it does run 4 Exalted Pathfinders and 1 Shamrock, the Goldfather). It had all those same cards as the reanimator you linked.

      I'm not familiar with the Auctioneer deck.

      As for those control decks vs the combo decks and aggro decks, I still don't see early game mass board control cards in every color, and I've gone through all standard legal early games actions/quick actions and even troops for every color because I use the options at top of deckbuilder, including searching key words. Single target control is not enough when opponent can play multiple troops in a single turn, and even worse the single target cards have restrictions that half the time make them useless even 1 for 1. Most of those cards you listed are too weak or too slow to kill 9/10, 10/10, and multiple 5/5s.

      The post was edited 1 time, last by [PSN]h0tNstilettos ().

    • The reason your probably saying aggro is too strong is because you're playing on the ladder against it a lot. A lot of people just run aggro to rank up quickly and it feels bad to get run over by it.

      That being said, control isn't in a great spot. Like Thufir said, the format isn't "solved" and so many decks attack on different axis that it's hard to prepare for all of them. Very different from the Lazgar's winter a couple of sets back. But hey, if you do hate aggro, rest easy knowing that many good aggro cards (boltspasm, righteous outlaw, escape goat, etc) are rotating out soon.
    • Shivdaddy wrote:

      My goodness you are exhausting Stilettos, lol. ThufirHawat put it perfectly I think.

      As for control vs agro, I think its intentional that it leans heavily towards agro. Agro is much more new player friendly compared to control.
      Lol, sorry. :D And I can't wait until Sony brings the PSN name changes. I hate my PSN ID. I haven't worn high heels in years, and I'm not the same girl now that I was 10 years ago when I was younger and picked that name, except that I'm still a gamer. Unfortunately, for some odd reason Hex team forces PS4 players to signup for the forums using their PSN ID. I tried signing up with a normal account. As for aggro vs control, maybe you're right.

      Jiggs wrote:

      The reason your probably saying aggro is too strong is because you're playing on the ladder against it a lot. A lot of people just run aggro to rank up quickly and it feels bad to get run over by it.

      That being said, control isn't in a great spot. Like Thufir said, the format isn't "solved" and so many decks attack on different axis that it's hard to prepare for all of them. Very different from the Lazgar's winter a couple of sets back. But hey, if you do hate aggro, rest easy knowing that many good aggro cards (boltspasm, righteous outlaw, escape goat, etc) are rotating out soon.
      Ironically, I have never lost a single game to mono ruby or any deck using the cards you listed. I've never had trouble beating those tier 2 aggro decks. It's only the tier 1 aggro decks that have caused issues, though my current rogue SW control ramp deck is dealing with them nicely. A candles player even conceded to me in game 1 and 2 last night after I was able to deal with them filling the board with large candles multiple times and their troop that gives them speed more than once. Let's just say champion Witch Wilda is overlooked, until the words "ramp" and "deploy effects more than once" come to mind. I still need to test against control decks with Dark Heart and Ascension. If this deck can reach top of cosmic or can win every round in a tournament, then I might write an article about it, and maybe post about it in the strategies forum. For now it's too early/premature to tell how good it truly is. So far it eats troop based decks for breakfast, including troops that can't be targeted or invincible.