Evolution Arena (Evolution Gauntlet - Frost Ring Arena) - Full explanation and reasoning

    • Evolution Arena (Evolution Gauntlet - Frost Ring Arena) - Full explanation and reasoning

      Evolution Gauntlet Frost Ring Arena:
      • 2 current block PvP packs + 100 plat entry (Evolution Gauntlet Start).
      • Player opens 2-3 additional rareless packs, as cards they keep that they can build with.
      • This is the variety piece that will change FRA deck builds slightly with each playthrough, and will add replayability to the mode, and a desire for players to collect PVP cards outside of Competitive PvP Limited formats.
      • Minimum Deckbuilding Requirement: Build a 40 card or more deck.
        • Allows anyone to enter and play.
      • Deck must contain at least 20 of the PvP cards opened.
        • After at least 20 PvP cards are selected and locked in, a second screen would pop up that allows a player to add in PvE cards, and equipment.
        • This allows for PvE cards and equipment to take the deck up to 60 or more cards, and drives price up on PvE cards and equipment.
      • All PvE Cards and Equipment owned are accessible, and can be added to the deck.
      • FRA Tier 2 through Tier 4.
      • PvP opened pack card reserves can be used after each fight. (and PvE cards to make new decks entirely)
      • Boss kills on Tier 2 and Tier 3 reward opened packs of current set that will be added to the PvP opened pack card reserves.
      • Final Tier 4 Elite Boss rewards closed pack of current set.
      • Normal dungeon rewards also apply, when the run concludes.


      What needs to be added to the game to make this work:
      1. New deckbuilding window that allows PvE only cards to be added to a deck, after at least 20 PvP opened pack cards are selected and saved in the first Evolution Arena deckbuilding window.
      2. Reserves deckbuilding window, that goes to the PvP opened pack card reserves and allows a deck to be modified after every Arena encounter.
      3. Reward triggers - similar to Evolution Gauntlet, that fire after a boss is killed in this mode.
      4. Possible balance changes - Elites removed, if the mode proves too challenging for majority of playerbase.


      Why?

      This really is the most important piece. HEX does not capitalize on replayability and end-game content for the playerbase that loves HEX for the giant sand box it can provide. Furthermore, it does not do a good job of promoting collection diversification for PvE progression, that help players improve their PvP set collections, when future PvP sets are released, including PvE cards, and PvP equipment collecting for the current set so that new equipment can be used with new cards opened in this mode. This mode would put a challenge in front of players that would be otherwise intimidated by competitive PvP formats, but still are interested in collecting PvP cards from the newest set. In other words, this would market to players that are currently untapped, and may end up being big contributors to HEX provided there was a mode they enjoyed to grind with a "Limited" feel to it.


      What this might look like for some still confused:

      I pay for entry into an Evolution Arena with 2packs of the current set(s), and 100plat. I open my pool, and I lock in these cards (This is a Kismet Draft for the screenshot)
      [Blocked Image: https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/195365203179732992/406843900435890177/unknown.png]


      After I lock in the cards above, I am taken to my PvE cards screen, and offered to add them, and equipment to the deck.
      [Blocked Image: https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/195365203179732992/406844681239003136/unknown.png]
      This could be the PvE Cards toggled with no ability to toggle off or sort for PvP cards/etc.I have 2 Arena Regulars, so opt to run equipment for them:
      [Blocked Image: https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/158360984669388800/406845451132862475/unknown.png]
      I add in 16x PvE cards, and 20x Resources taking my deck, from the minimum 40 cards required, to 60 cards:
      [Blocked Image: https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/158360984669388800/406846381374963713/unknown.png]
      I then conclude with pairing all my equipment for my deck, before battling the Arena:
      [Blocked Image: https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/158360984669388800/406846810305593346/unknown.png]

      The post was edited 2 times, last by NicoSharp ().

    • I said this when you mentioned it elsewhere, and I stand by it here:

      First, I love the concept of evolving PvE content. But I feel there are a few key flaws with your suggestion.

      1) Arena bosses are WAY too specialized and difficult to be beatable with an Evo quality deck, even with a few PvE cards support. As a result, people will likely build much larger decks to trivialize the impact of the '20 pvp cards' they have to play from the evo, so that they can build essentially a standard pve arena deck and just rely on not drawing their evo cards to win... since simply building an evo deck and fleshing it out with a few extra cards will be 100% guaranteed to fail.

      2) Evolving Sealed is fun because you build a deck entirely out of those cards, making the best you can out of a bad situation... and gradually making it more powerful as you unlock additional cards. It's all about doing what you can with what you're given. Your suggestion inverts that. Your evo cards are the BAD PART of your deck... so your goal becomes to MINIMIZE THE NEGATIVE rather than maximizing the positive. It turns the experience into a feel-bad when you open your initial packs, rather than a feel-good... since almost no matter what you open, it's going to be reducing the power of your deck.

      3) There is no sense of progression in this game mode. You gain pvp cards, which you can't use in subsequent runs, since you can only use your PvE cards. You don't get equipment either. None of what you gain in this game mode progresses you in the game mode. This is fine in a game mode that is ENTIRELY self-contained because you expect to not use any of your stuff. But in a game mode where you are pulling from what your collection contains, it is not a pleasant experience to find out nothing you gain in this mode can ever be used in subsequent runs.

      4) It further trivializes what is SUPPOSED to be the core of the game's PvE content - our PvE characters. PVP champs are really boring. This would fit so well into a campaign setting - so many games have utilized this type of concept very well to develop existing characters and allow for an alternate progression method... it seems like a missed opportunity to implement something like this without taking that into account.
      Gamer. Streamer. Photographer. Writer. Anime Lover. Possessor of Stuffed Animals.

      Also... I'm terrible at this game.
    • 1) Simply wrong. I am not even going to get into this to a large degree, but if it comes down to average 50% fail on Tier 2 Boss, things can be tweaked.

      2) Somewhat true. Not really important as this mode caters to both players. People will rarely go to 70-100 cards just to mitigate a bad EVO pool, but at least they have the option.

      3) There is plenty of progression in this mode:
      1. in the cards you can include in your PvP playables.
      2. in how we collect cards and equipment to make this experience better.
      3. in being able to shift into more open PvE and PvP modes. A limited experience is never one that allows you have full access to everything you've already required.


      4) Everyone has a different perspective on what the Core of PvE is suppose to be. This is a hybrid mode that would make HEX money, and a large % of the playerbase would enjoy. That takes advantage of two sandboxes we already have access to and play often. Campaign is a long ways away, and access to those characters is a much more challenging balancing act that is not low hanging fruit and HEX would be hard-pushed, based on their current deliverables, to implement and maintain.. Trying to be realistic about this...
    • NicoSharp wrote:

      1) Simply wrong. I am not even going to get into this to a large degree, but if it comes down to average 50% fail on Tier 2 Boss, things can be tweaked.
      I'm pretty sure that, unless a person got mill cards in their evo pool, it 'd be closer to a 70% fail on the first boss they ran into. Just to be blunt.

      Evo pools are NOT that good.


      NicoSharp wrote:

      2) Somewhat true. Not really important as this mode caters to both players. People will rarely go to 70-100 cards just to mitigate a bad EVO pool, but at least they have the option.
      It is important that the environment would create a feel-bad experience EVERY TIME you start. Starting every single pool on a negative note is not going to create a healthy environment. And would severely impact your later point:

      NicoSharp wrote:

      a large % of the playerbase would enjoy
      Starting on a negative will get in the way of THIS point a lot.


      NicoSharp wrote:

      3) There is plenty of progression in this mode:
      You're misunderstanding what I'm referring to. What I mean is that the cards and rewards you get from this mode do not make your NEXT evo arena any better, because you can't play ANY of them. The only way you can progress is to sell them all and go buy pve cards and equipments, which is a much less satisfying form of progression than simply getting something cool you can use going forward.

      Now if we added pve cards and equipment TO THE EVO PACKS, that'd be a different story. But if all you're getting out of this is pvp cards, then you're not making any progression. (It could even be done as simple as 'every pack opened this way contains 2 pve uncommons and 1 pve rare or better, and two pieces of equipment guaranteed to be for cards in your pool)

      There is progression WITHIN the rounds, but none between them.
      Gamer. Streamer. Photographer. Writer. Anime Lover. Possessor of Stuffed Animals.

      Also... I'm terrible at this game.
    • I feel like you are missing a great many things about this mode concept, with how you think about it, and you base your experiences and current dissatisfaction on what a future state would look like.

      For one, This mode would allow reserves after every fight.
      If you fail on a Boss or encounter, you did not tweak the deck correctly. Each encounter has a trick you can tweak to beat. 70% of the community would not fail on Tier 2 without Terrormill, you are just very toxic about your stance on Terrormill being obnoxiously the best.

      Feel bad? How? Again - I think you are personifying here based on what you think a hybrid mode should look like based on your current interpretation on how players would incorporate PvP cards they open with cards they own that destroy the content currently.

      Progression again is being missed here. You still also obtain the PvE cards and equipment rewards from the Arena itself. Again, this is a limited mode, and the progression is the same as any other limited mode, and stops when you end that limited instance. I'm not sure why you are discussing progression in this manner, as it is completely irrelevant based on what is being asked for and what we currently have in the game that does the same thing. The PvP opened pack rewards will be used to tweak the deck in-between encounters. In fact, I imagine entire decks will change based on the encounters faced. Giving players the versatility to build towards the battle.
    • NicoSharp wrote:

      I feel like you are missing a great many things about this mode concept
      I think you're exaggerating the quality of evo pools if you feel like reserves are going to be THAT meaningful. Most of the specific hate counters are pvp cards.

      NicoSharp wrote:

      you are just very toxic about your stance on Terrormill being obnoxiously the best.
      Mill is the cheapest strategy with the most varied pve options that is effective in the arena. This is fact. Nearly every other strategy that comes anywhere close to it is FAR more particular about its cards, requires far more expensive cards, and puts a heavier burden on expensive pvp cards(or kickstarter cards which, as far as I'm concerned, don't exist).

      That's all.

      NicoSharp wrote:

      Feel bad? How? Again - I think you are personifying here based on what you think a hybrid mode should look like based on your current interpretation on how players would incorporate PvP cards they open with cards they own that destroy the content currently.
      So now you're going back on your initial agreement when I said this in the first place? I see.

      NicoSharp wrote:

      2) Somewhat true. Not really important

      As I explained at the start... it's a feelbad, because the cards you open in the evo are the BAD PART of your deck. So you're always starting off by seeing the worst part of your experience. The first thing you go through is always the worst component... and you can't even see your pve cards at first, so unless you have your collection memorized, you don't even KNOW what pve cards you can use with these pvp cards necessarily.
      Gamer. Streamer. Photographer. Writer. Anime Lover. Possessor of Stuffed Animals.

      Also... I'm terrible at this game.
    • Overall I like idea, but details arent great.

      Most important thing probably, entry fee for f2p players should be different, more adjusted to people who dont spend much cash on hex

      I had a chance to test eternal card game year ago or somethink like that, limited there was soooo great, it should be example
    • DraXor wrote:

      Overall I like idea, but details arent great.

      Most important thing probably, entry fee for f2p players should be different, more adjusted to people who dont spend much cash on hex

      I had a chance to test eternal card game year ago or somethink like that, limited there was soooo great, it should be example
      Draxor - The F2P players play Frost Ring Arena :) That is the whole point of this being a "For Stakes" Frost Ring Arena - essentially.

      Eternal was also a PvP Competitive limited experience. Correct me if I am wrong. This is taking the PvP out of Limited, intentionally. I get that a Hearthstone esque one where you get to pick cards from several options is desired, but I don't fool myself about the engineering feats required to implement something along those lines, so don't bother asking for it.

      Eraia, I am just going to bow out of the conversation with you about the differences, because we don't see eye-to-eye on it, and I can't sway you to think optimistically about the potential here. The devil is really in the details, but also, if implemented, how would Evolution Arena be utilized. Ultimately, the questions would be, would it be enjoyed, and would it make HEX money? I think the answer would be yes to both. I know it would replace much of my interest in other limited modes and allow me to get more value out of my gold farming PvE content at the same time as diversifying my experience and presenting me with a challenge. Which could be seen as a negative to HXE because they want those limited modes to fire... To that I say give people more options, and increase the playerbase in doing so.
    • Lets try to imagine drafting ... Where there is no pod, just you... After drafting a deck from pvp packs you play against AI only.

      With HEX possibility, we could add pve cards and eq from collection, merc also if possible, build 60 cards deck and go try FRA.

      Your reward system is probably too profitable. Not sure how easy it could be but it should be doable to pretty often kill all 3 bosses and get 2 extra packs opened and 1 unopened. Easy way to create a value here and makes profit probably.
      In exchange, rewards like this should be something more like tickets for next run, then valuable stuff.
    • NicoSharp wrote:

      Eraia, I am just going to bow out of the conversation with you about the differences, because we don't see eye-to-eye on it, and I can't sway you to think optimistically about the potential here. The devil is really in the details, but also, if implemented, how would Evolution Arena be utilized. Ultimately, the questions would be, would it be enjoyed, and would it make HEX money? I think the answer would be yes to both. I know it would replace much of my interest in other limited modes and allow me to get more value out of my gold farming PvE content at the same time as diversifying my experience and presenting me with a challenge. Which could be seen as a negative to HXE because they want those limited modes to fire... To that I say give people more options, and increase the playerbase in doing so.
      Ie. "I don't want feedback, I just want people to agree with me because I think my idea's perfect".

      Got it. Have a great day.
      Gamer. Streamer. Photographer. Writer. Anime Lover. Possessor of Stuffed Animals.

      Also... I'm terrible at this game.
    • DraXor wrote:

      Lets try to imagine drafting ... Where there is no pod, just you... After drafting a deck from pvp packs you play against AI only.

      With HEX possibility, we could add pve cards and eq from collection, merc also if possible, build 60 cards deck and go try FRA.

      Your reward system is probably too profitable. Not sure how easy it could be but it should be doable to pretty often kill all 3 bosses and get 2 extra packs opened and 1 unopened. Easy way to create a value here and makes profit probably.
      In exchange, rewards like this should be something more like tickets for next run, then valuable stuff.
      So, trust me, initially, I thought about exactly that - a Phantom Draft of sorts, and thought it would be cool instead than Evolution style - but there is one major drawback here. This allows a player to 100% cater to their PvE cards/equipment of choice when drafting cards they want. Not always a down-side but it stifles the desire for players to try different builds, and expand their PvE collections.

      @Eraia Don't really expect much more from you. Exactly 0 of my ideas have been implemented in HEX. If I was looking for agreement, I'd go elsewhere. Goals: This gets read, This gets thought about, people share ideas to make it a stronger concept. I don't really see any of that coming from you. But congrats on post count.
    • NicoSharp wrote:

      I don't really see any of that coming from you
      Yes, because my feedback disagree with you, and is thus worthless.

      It's hilarious... you claim I can't see the potential, but you're apparently blind to the problems. And not even willing to listen to someone try to discuss them with you.


      NicoSharp wrote:

      But congrats on post count.
      I really give no care about that. I enjoy being invovled in discussions, so I discuss. If I could hide the post count, I'd be thrilled to do so. I don't care about it, and it's silly to focus on it.
      Gamer. Streamer. Photographer. Writer. Anime Lover. Possessor of Stuffed Animals.

      Also... I'm terrible at this game.
    • Eraia. I think you misunderstand why people on the forums get frustrated with you, over and over again.

      You do not offer constructive criticism. You offer criticism.

      Criticism is a type of feedback, sure. But it's not one that can really go anywhere.
      I tried to explain to you why your criticism is personified, and where there is no alignment with what is being suggested, and you continue to try to poke the same holes. Offer alternatives with the hole pokes, and we can continue to have a conversation.
      This is why I said I have to bow out. This isn't about my idea being perfect at this point, it's about how you communicate.

      It is important for me to point out your post count because it indeed does not matter. It's the substance of what you say. Make it substantial. Think about why you are communicating with others. Think about how you want others to communicate with you....

      The post was edited 1 time, last by NicoSharp ().

    • NicoSharp wrote:

      Offer alternatives with the hole pokes, and we can continue to have a conversation.
      My intent was to point out weaknesses in your idea in the hopes you'd take them seriously, evaluate them, and actually discuss them. It is not my idea, so I'm not going to spend a ton of time coming up with all sorts of suggestions. I will discuss your idea with you, and I will focus on the components that you do not seem to already know.(You're clearly already aware of the idea's strengths, so discussing those is an exercize in futility.)

      NicoSharp wrote:

      You do not offer constructive criticism.
      I offered insight into flaws. There was no insulting, there was no destructive element, there was no saying the idea was bad because of it. I simply stated that these were flaws I saw.

      My goal was to offer you an insight into a differing perspective. My first post WAS 100% constructive criticism. My goal was to help strengthen the idea by identifying its shortcomings as seen from a differing perspective. to bring awareness to you.

      You replied to that with: "You're wrong and I'm not even going to say why"... and you can't see how that might piss someone off?
      Gamer. Streamer. Photographer. Writer. Anime Lover. Possessor of Stuffed Animals.

      Also... I'm terrible at this game.
    • Eraia wrote:

      You replied to that with: "You're wrong and I'm not even going to say why"... and you can't see how that might piss someone off?

      Eraia wrote:

      1) Arena bosses are WAY too specialized and difficult to be beatable with an Evo quality deck, even with a few PvE cards support. As a result, people will likely build much larger decks to trivialize the impact of the '20 pvp cards' they have to play from the evo, so that they can build essentially a standard pve arena deck and just rely on not drawing their evo cards to win... since simply building an evo deck and fleshing it out with a few extra cards will be 100% guaranteed to fail.

      I replied with:

      NicoSharp wrote:

      1) Simply wrong. I am not even going to get into this to a large degree, but if it comes down to average 50% fail on Tier 2 Boss, things can be tweaked.
      If you have trouble beating a Tier 2 Boss in this mode with reserves, I have a hard time taking you seriously, and don't want to make you feel bad through expanding on why it should be relatively simple, regardless of the EVO pool of PVP cards you end up playing with. I especially like the highlighted quote.. Comical.
    • i like the idea of PVE limited, but i don't know how much i'd play this. it sounds more like PVE constructed where you try to minimize the damage caused by an evo pool rather than sealed deck

      the concept of bolstering your sealed pool with collection cards that fit the theme of your deck is interesting, but it relies on us to police ourselves. that tends to not to work when there are prizes involved.

      there might be a way to categorize each card and then let you add cards from that category to your pool. for example if your evo half has 5 portal cards, you can bring in 5 cards from the portal category.
    • I've been an advocate for a mode like this for a long time. The trickiest part is the reward structure and balancing though. If you're awarding PVP packs then the part that is difficult is so that you're tuning it in a way that on average the number of packs that is being paid out is identical to the number that regular evo does. This means making the content something that many players are not always likely to beat.

      It is a matter of average across the total population, and making it so that it isn't just a way to easily grind packs (opened or unopened) for top tier players. The particulars of reward structure and balance are really easy to do horribly wrong and pretty challenging to do correctly. I do think it is probably easier to come up with a compelling reward (which importantly remains compelling) than it is to just shoehorn in rewarding pvp packs. Not impossible though.

      Edit: meant to point out that I really feel that @Eraia 's critiques are far more based in "this isn't the type of content that I would ever enjoy" than it is in "this is content that is targeted specifically to the type of player which I am and I feel there are things missing"

      Not every piece of content is meant to be enjoyed by every type of player. Recognizing that goes a long way. If / when, other players got a piece of content that they enjoy, you should be happy for them rather than quick to point out why you think that piece of content sucks.
    • Funktion wrote:

      I've been an advocate for a mode like this for a long time. The trickiest part is the reward structure and balancing though. If you're awarding PVP packs then the part that is difficult is so that you're tuning it in a way that on average the number of packs that is being paid out is identical to the number that regular evo does. This means making the content something that many players are not always likely to beat.

      It is a matter of average across the total population, and making it so that it isn't just a way to easily grind packs (opened or unopened) for top tier players. The particulars of reward structure and balance are really easy to do horribly wrong and pretty challenging to do correctly. I do think it is probably easier to come up with a compelling reward (which importantly remains compelling) than it is to just shoehorn in rewarding pvp packs. Not impossible though.

      Edit: meant to point out that I really feel that @Eraia 's critiques are far more based in "this isn't the type of content that I would ever enjoy" than it is in "this is content that is targeted specifically to the type of player which I am and I feel there are things missing"

      Not every piece of content is meant to be enjoyed by every type of player. Recognizing that goes a long way. If / when, other players got a piece of content that they enjoy, you should be happy for them rather than quick to point out why you think that piece of content sucks.
      While the prize payout mantra may still be a value mantra HXE has for the playerbase, I am not as concerned about the prize payouts based on their slow implementation of more constructed tournaments and offerings for players not interested in paying into play. I see it more as paying into a limited experience and having payouts associated to time commitment, and inputs.

      There would probably be a fair argument to make for reducing the payout to 2 opened packs, and bonus gold or something for a final clear, or maybe some partial entry into a future Evolution Arena instead than an unopened pack. There are many desires I personally would have baked into this concept of replayable limited PvE:
      1. A new way to grind PvP sets as blocks rotate and limited formats rotate
      2. Incentive to play PvE content in a variety of ways (Not the same deck every time) (Why I like Biz's idea a bit more than this, but know it may take more tuning to get there)
      3. Having a challenge, investment, and incentive to do well, that is not at the whims of another live player.
      4. Incentivizing a new demographic to pay into playing HEX, that would be intimidated otherwise.
      5. Incentivizing collecting - both PvP, and PvE - Something the game does not do a great job of now, unless you are really into full-blown PvP constructed with a highly competitive testing group.
    • I love the idea for this mode, but I think it would be a lot cooler to have it have its own PvE set of cards that you use for this, I think it would make it a lot cooler. Either price it in gold or plat, and sure it would add more work of developing the PvE set but I think it would make it so much cooler.