Popularity of Drafts

    • Popularity of Drafts

      Given that the most recent kismet draft is starting to drop in popularity, I think it is time to revisit problems with asynch draft in general. IMO the current kismet draft is not as popular because there are fundamental problems with asynch. 1. The rewards are not good for the casual player 2. The games feel lopsided at times and reminds me more of swiss games.

      I think asynch should have swiss rewards with an additional in pod draft. What we have is not working.
    • meh... playerbase is just too low - never waited that long for evo games to fire too...

      10+ minutes even for 1-x games and sometimes up to 20+ minutes for 3-x games.

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    • There are other factors you may not be considering involved as well... the biggest one is obviously that post-Christmas, peoples' spending tends to drop significantly due to overspending prior to it.

      Personally, I stated that, due to the high focus on mill, I would not spend any money during this set(vote with your wallet and all that) - and I haven't been able to sell as many cards as I was hoping, so I lack the plat to do anything more than a few evos. Other people may have their own personal reasons for choosing not to spend that has nothing to do with the draft format itself.

      People may be choosing to spend their time on other matters - whether it be new games that've come out, or things they got at Christmas, or just something they got a renewed passion for for whatever reason. We're getting into grad-school entrance season, from what a few of my friends have told me, so people may be choosing to put their time into preparing for grad studies. Additionally, some parts of the world have exams coming up, which may be monopolizing time for younger players.

      The situation is always more complicated than it seems, and discounting relevant factors just to prove a point is not the way to go about it.

      That being said, I'm totally all for them revisiting the rewards structure. I've been against it from the beginning.
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    • Eraia I am not writing thesis on why drafts are bad right now. Of course there are other factors. But the fact remains that asynch draft is not popular and they should be right now because the ev is pretty good. If it is population that is dwindling then that is a problem in and of itself.
    • Eraia wrote:

      There are other factors you may not be considering involved as well... the biggest one is obviously that post-Christmas, peoples' spending tends to drop significantly due to overspending prior to it.

      Personally, I stated that, due to the high focus on mill, I would not spend any money during this set(vote with your wallet and all that) - and I haven't been able to sell as many cards as I was hoping, so I lack the plat to do anything more than a few evos. Other people may have their own personal reasons for choosing not to spend that has nothing to do with the draft format itself.

      People may be choosing to spend their time on other matters - whether it be new games that've come out, or things they got at Christmas, or just something they got a renewed passion for for whatever reason. We're getting into grad-school entrance season, from what a few of my friends have told me, so people may be choosing to put their time into preparing for grad studies. Additionally, some parts of the world have exams coming up, which may be monopolizing time for younger players.

      The situation is always more complicated than it seems, and discounting relevant factors just to prove a point is not the way to go about it.

      That being said, I'm totally all for them revisiting the rewards structure. I've been against it from the beginning.
      There are alot of factors that are in considerations

      - Low population
      - Structure of payout (not very casual)
      - Structure of the gauthlet (just 3 rounds win or lose compared to the more casual win 5 lose 3, even mtgo has a 7 or 9 round win/lose compared to 3 in a more casual format, I know we have Evo that does that , but evo is not drafting)
      - Kismets being less good then the last one (and the bonus also) but there is good value from the rares in it.

      There is alot of competition in the gaming industry. With how many Card game are out and are coming out, I just can't wait for them to fail so we can reduce de number of players and concentrate on the good ones (Hex of course!)

      I would be for revisiting the structure of prizes and lenght of the gauhtlet to help it be more casual.. No idea if that would work tho.

      Also finding so many excuses is not good. Its always something around the word (holiday, spending, summer, christmast, exams) . There are internal and external factors, and right now I'd say that Hex problems have been more internal then external
    • Pandaemonium wrote:

      But the fact remains that asynch draft is not popular
      I don't know that this is a fact. Nobody has been able to present data that proves this. At worst, the data I've seen tends to point to a conclusion of 'Asynch draft being no more popular than Pod draft was'. I would love to see an objective analysis, considering other factors, that validates this point as more than just a gut feeling of yours.

      Pandaemonium wrote:

      they should be right now because the ev is pretty good
      Yes, but there are other factors that explain why it might not be. Such as the factors listed above. EVERYTHING that costs money becomes less popular this time of year, regardless of whether it's 'good ev' or not.

      It's also possible that the current Kismet card selection is proving not popular or fun to play as. Or that the AnA's are not enticing people to want to play. Etc. Etc. Etc.

      Pandaemonium wrote:

      If it is population that is dwindling then that is a problem in and of itself.
      Absolutely, but I don't believe we can safely make that assumption, nor is it relevant to the point of 'let's bring pod drafts back!'.
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    • Pandaemonium wrote:

      Eraia so what you are saying is stay the course? It seems as though you want the rewards to change right? Do you think a reward change will increase the popularity of drafts?.

      I dont think drafts are in a healthy spot, if you do then we really wont see eye to eye.
      What I'm saying is that I feel it's important to not misrepresent data to push an agenda. That's what politicians do, and we all hate them for it, right?

      Unless you have enough objective data to back up your stance, don't try to speak for everyone. Speak for yourself. Say 'I want pod drafts because I want to play pod drafts'. Not 'I want pod drafts because asynch drafts aren't working'. The one is a valid piece of feedback. The other is you trying to speak way above your station but not providing data to justify the point.
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    • people never understood the problems async drafts faced, they just wanted it because it sounded good.

      Low population is even worse for async than regular draft. People who draft and don't play that pool for a few days lowers the total number of players available for a draft to fire. If 25% of the drafters do this practice then imagine how small of a population there is to for a draft .

      Add in the ridiculous amount of kismet draft with the lackluster participation prizes and you lose the players who were drafting to build their new set collection. Let's say that number is also 25% of the drafters.

      Now you are up to 50% less players in an already small community
    • Eraia wrote:

      Pandaemonium wrote:

      Eraia so what you are saying is stay the course? It seems as though you want the rewards to change right? Do you think a reward change will increase the popularity of drafts?.

      I dont think drafts are in a healthy spot, if you do then we really wont see eye to eye.
      What I'm saying is that I feel it's important to not misrepresent data to push an agenda. That's what politicians do, and we all hate them for it, right?
      Unless you have enough objective data to back up your stance, don't try to speak for everyone. Speak for yourself. Say 'I want pod drafts because I want to play pod drafts'. Not 'I want pod drafts because asynch drafts aren't working'. The one is a valid piece of feedback. The other is you trying to speak way above your station but not providing data to justify the point.
      I am misrepresenting data because I dont believe drafts are working? This is my opinion and I believe the data shows that the kismet drafts are losing popularity. If you have a beef with me that is fine, I dont care.

      I am giving you my honest opinion that I dont believe drafts are working, as you said the rewards are bad. Things should change. This has been discussed adnosium I know, but I truly believes the game will benefit if there are changes. Staying the course seems stupid and I dont see why someone would argue for it.

      The post was edited 1 time, last by Pandaemonium ().

    • Pandaemonium wrote:

      I am misrepresenting data because I dont believe drafts are working?
      You're misrepresenting data because you're using a reduction in number of paid events firing in the month immediately following Christmas to prove something.

      I don't have a beef with you, personally, at all. I have a beef with people taking a look at data, isolating that data absent other factors, and saying 'well it must mean this' as if those other factors don't exist... just because they have a personal agenda that they REALLY want to be right about.

      Let's be real here, Hex has more data than we do. So unless you're going to provide exact data trends that you feel they may have missed, backed up WITH THE DATA in detail that points to it.... trying to use data to push an agenda is a waste of your time.

      Do you know what's not a waste of your time? Telling Hex how you feel about something and why you, personally, feel that way. Not why 'the data' makes you feel that way, but why you, as an individual, feel about something.

      So stick to that.

      I feel the rewards structure is poor, because it does not feel satisfying to win either 1 or 2 matches in the current draft format for me. I feel the rewards structure discourages me, as a mediocre player, from participating at all. I also do not feel as though the animated art cards are a sufficient draw for me to be interested in playing more since the default rewards are discouraging, and this particular Kismet format does not have a lot of the interactions I would love to play with again. These factors contribute to my personal reasons for not playing Kismet Draft as much, alongside the fact that I have not been able to sell as many cards for plat to earn enough to draft.

      What are your personal reasons for not being happy with drafting, Pandemonium? I would really like to hear those. Not what you feel data points to, but your personal reasons for your level of interest or disinterest in drafting.
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    • Eraia please read the original post. The rewards dont fit the asynch dormat and most importantly the games are too lopsided (what I said on my original post).

      I can interpret data and it shows that drafts arent popular right now. This is right after kismet drafts started which have great ev. Is that misrepresenting data, no. I dont have the ability to do some crazy data deconstruction but a downward trend graph is a downward trend graph and it really should not be happening so soon to the release of kismet.
    • Pandaemonium wrote:

      it really should not be happening so soon to the release of kismet.
      EXCEPT that we're in the season where EVERYTHING shows a downturn. Right after Christmas. EVERYTHING that costs money sells less in the 3-4 weeks after Christmas(except in places with Boxing Day sales)
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    • Eraia wrote:

      Pandaemonium wrote:

      it really should not be happening so soon to the release of kismet.
      EXCEPT that we're in the season where EVERYTHING shows a downturn. Right after Christmas. EVERYTHING that costs money sells less in the 3-4 weeks after Christmas(except in places with Boxing Day sales)
      Thanks for just picking this sentence. Everything usually does go down. But we are very close to the number of drafts fired right before kismet and that is unusual. If you think things are hunky dory that is your right. However, it is not fair to say I am misrepresenting data. If anything that staement from you is misrepresentation in and of itself.

      Edit imo one reason why constructed has become so expensive is because people dont play limited like they used to.

      The post was edited 3 times, last by Pandaemonium ().

    • Eraia wrote:

      EVERYTHING that costs money sells less in the 3-4 weeks after Christmas(except in places with Boxing Day sales)
      But drafts do not cost money. They cost plat.

      The distinction is usually irrelevant, but it's very important here. If you buy a bunch of plat for drafts, you're not going to spend it all at once. You're going to spend it gradually over weeks or months, $1-$7 at a time.

      The post was edited 1 time, last by Mach ().

    • 1. Low paying population ("Oh, but look how much Constructed Ladder increased with the PS4 release". Well...)
      2. People did not have time to collect their set 8 cards and may turn to EVO or Sealed.
      3. Kismet was completely new and therefore more fun the first time.
      4. kismet was more worth it the first time (talking about sleeves reward)
      5. Kismet had a much shorter deadline for people to collect stuff the first time.
    • Pandaemonium wrote:

      If you think things are hunky dory that is your right
      I don't necessarily think things are hunky dory - I lack the data to say that definitively, I just think that saying 'well things took a downturn so it's because of asynch drafts which have been around for months and haven't changed in that time' is accurate. I feel like there are FAR MORE LOGICAL explanations for the current downswing in drafts than a prizing change that came about months and months ago.

      I feel like you're letting your personal bias against the current prizing and tournament structure colour your analysis of the data.


      Vroengard wrote:

      1. Low paying population ("Oh, but look how much Constructed Ladder increased with the PS4 release". Well...)
      2. People did not have time to collect their set 8 cards and may turn to EVO or Sealed.
      3. Kismet was completely new and therefore more fun the first time.
      4. kismet was more worth it the first time (talking about sleeves reward)
      5. Kismet had a much shorter deadline for people to collect stuff the first time.
      6. The last kismet card and champ pool was more fun to play. (Debatable, but a possible reason)
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    • I played last Kismet because I wanted the sleeves, ultimately burning out on it; this Kismet I haven't touched, but have instead simply purchased the AAA cards it produced, saving myself grief and time and getting the part of it that interested me. I'm very assuredly an outlier, however--the first Kismet Draft was the first time I'd come back to drafting at all meaningfully since the change to asynch and I'm unlikely to pick it up again even if the reward format changes back to sleeves (I had a really negative time chasing sleeves the first time around.) Similarly, I have no plans of playing other formats of asynch draft with future set releases either, though--so I'm not exactly trying to posit that anything should change because of a player like me.
    • To offer another view on the topic:

      I personally enjoy the 2nd installment of Kismet's Draft a lot:

      - The pool seems to be very well crafted over all. Charge feels a little too pushed with a bit too many enablers and payoff cards at common.
      Most other builds require at least some uncommon enablers to be viable but everything considered it feels rather balanced to me.

      - The bonus rewards feel better to me - tradable AA cards compared to worthless sleeves.
      This is only my opinion though, others may very well prefer sleeves to cards.

      - The EV is superb, even going 2-1 is a big net win on average.

      Those things said I can't deny that it takes a lot of time for drafts to fire and that's a problem that needs to be looked at.
      Small playerbase is one of the problems for sure but there might be others.

      I personally like the payout structure of draft as it is the only format that allows me to end a run with enough boosters to immediately start the next one. Changing the structure to be more casual would turn me away from playing draft but than again it might encourage more players to give it a try.
      In a perfect world we'd have different queues with different payout structures but that's just not an option at the moment.