​Robogoyle Ban or rework

    • ​Robogoyle Ban or rework

      I know a lot of us have been going on about the candle Menace. But I really wanted to bring some light to the unfairness that is Robogoyle, I truly don't understand why it's okay to have a card that cost 3000 gold single-handedly hard counter an entire archetype. It's a free 3/3 that fliess ,has no way of countering it or interacting with it , and undoes most of ,if not all the Milling you've done to even bring the card out and the only way to counter the card is to herofall it before multiples hit the field. It's not it's okay for this Uncommon card only counter being a 1000 Plat piece of removal that not a lot of players have access to.I know it's not on the consistency and dominance verses all Arch types like Lazgar's Vengeance.But as a very Avid hex player it just leaves a bad taste in my mouth buying the $20 pre-made Mill deck that supports the archetype of the newest block and to have it all be countered by 4 cards that I actually can't do anything about until they've done the deed.Also just for transparency sake I'm not making this post about the $20 pre-made deck I'm making this post about the $120 Mill deck that I've spent the last weeks making over the course of trading and buying off the auction house.I want this game to thrive and be fair for all players of all walks of life and various incomes.But I've never seen a card be this dominant and be accessible with so many other thresholds before you respond. I ask you this one question how many do you run in your Reserve in all of your deck.

    • Powerful reserves answers are incredibly important to allow for a dynamic metagame. The card is not overpowered in the slightest in my eyes.

      Even with this card in existence, the bury deck is quite good. I have the full 4 Robogoyle in my reserves in diamond/sapphire control and it's still rarely enough.

    • Kaijudums wrote:

      Powerful reserves answers are incredibly important to allow for a dynamic metagame. The card is not overpowered in the slightest in my eyes.

      Even with this card in existence, the bury deck is quite good. I have the full 4 Robogoyle in my reserves in diamond/sapphire control and it's still rarely enough.
      Try to be the mill deck vs D/S control and you will feel differently about it. D/S control especially is just super hard for the mill deck to do much after the Robogoyle is out early enough with all the counters in the world to keep Robogoyles out of the void.

      As for powerful reserve, I see absolutely nothing that provides the value-efficiency of Robogoyle when it comes to powerful reserve answer. Every other reserve cards in the world needs two things: cost and "be in hand". Robogoyle needs absolutely none of those. To counter a full constant deck with Scouring Light, I have to draw into Scouring Light, and then decide when to use it. Can I hold it for now? Do I need the 2 mana for something else? Should I save it for later when my opponent has more impactful constants on the board? By needing cost to cast it and having it in hand, powerful reserve card requires thinking and timing to utilize even when they are powerful. Robogoyle, on the other hand, needs absolutely zero of those things. You have Robogoyle in your deck, you just shove your deck to your mill deck opponent and say "please, mill my whole deck in next turn so I can beat you for 12 in the air per turn". Absolutely zero cost needed and absolutely zero thinking is needed to play Robogoyle efficiently. I find that to be a huge difference than other powerful reserve cards ever printed in Hex.

      I have zero issue with Robogoyle in limited though, you rarely find more than 1 and 2 is more than enough. Plus, you aren't going to be paired up with mill deck anyway so if you are drafting and including Robogoyle, you might be risking your pick. Constructed, it's insanely powerful.

    • Goliathus wrote:

      Kaijudums wrote:

      Powerful reserves answers are incredibly important to allow for a dynamic metagame. The card is not overpowered in the slightest in my eyes.

      Even with this card in existence, the bury deck is quite good. I have the full 4 Robogoyle in my reserves in diamond/sapphire control and it's still rarely enough.
      Try to be the mill deck vs D/S control and you will feel differently about it. D/S control especially is just super hard for the mill deck to do much after the Robogoyle is out early enough with all the counters in the world to keep Robogoyles out of the void.
      As for powerful reserve, I see absolutely nothing that provides the value-efficiency of Robogoyle when it comes to powerful reserve answer. Every other reserve cards in the world needs two things: cost and "be in hand". Robogoyle needs absolutely none of those. To counter a full constant deck with Scouring Light, I have to draw into Scouring Light, and then decide when to use it. Can I hold it for now? Do I need the 2 mana for something else? Should I save it for later when my opponent has more impactful constants on the board? By needing cost to cast it and having it in hand, powerful reserve card requires thinking and timing to utilize even when they are powerful. Robogoyle, on the other hand, needs absolutely zero of those things. You have Robogoyle in your deck, you just shove your deck to your mill deck opponent and say "please, mill my whole deck in next turn so I can beat you for 12 in the air per turn". Absolutely zero cost needed and absolutely zero thinking is needed to play Robogoyle efficiently. I find that to be a huge difference than other powerful reserve cards ever printed in Hex.

      I have zero issue with Robogoyle in limited though, you rarely find more than 1 and 2 is more than enough. Plus, you aren't going to be paired up with mill deck anyway so if you are drafting and including Robogoyle, you might be risking your pick. Constructed, it's insanely powerful.
      I mean, if they get all four at once... but otherwise, maybe try something like Into the Unknown on the first one. Change the rest into something else... then it just slows you down a bit.

      But really, every deck is supposed to have hard matchups. If what you're saying is Robogoyle ensures that Mill has at least one hard matchup in constructed, that sounds pretty healthy then.
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    • Eraia wrote:

      I mean, if they get all four at once... but otherwise, maybe try something like Into the Unknown on the first one. Change the rest into something else... then it just slows you down a bit.
      But really, every deck is supposed to have hard matchups. If what you're saying is Robogoyle ensures that Mill has at least one hard matchup in constructed, that sounds pretty healthy then.
      Yes, I can Herofall or ITU the first one as long as I find the answer. However, I would point out that as I mentioned above, trying to Herofall/ITU a Robogoyle of a D/S control, in particularly, is very hard with all the counters in their hand. Other deck, well, it depends on whether into ITU/Herofall or not then. Also, Herofall/ITU costs mana and needs to be in my hand, as I said above. Robogoyle, on the other hand, is bound to be found as long as I keep milling, which I have to if I am playing a mill deck in set 8. Not like I can find enough spiders and then stop milling and hope to kill my opponent through spider like set 7. All the payoff cards in the current mill archetype requires a lot of cards in my opponent's crypt. I would also point out that a Robogoyle is a 0-cost 3/3 flyer when "found". As I said above, every other hate cards are played from the player's hand. They cost mana, and decision, not a 0-cost huge tempo swing like Robogoyle. Robogoyle is also ready on the opponent's turn, so you are getting whacked for 3 right away too, that is very huge tempo swing. I would not be complaining at all if Robogoyle has to be played from hand. Like having text that reads "If this is milled, it gets cost-4(or -3), put it into player's hand." That way at least it costs mana and have a turn of summoning sickness. It will also maintain its 5 cost if not milled.

      Mill deck is never ever a T1 until now. They have hard matchups before the existence of Robogoyle. It's not like mill has absolute zero hard matchup in constructed before Robogoyle. So all Robogoyle really provide is make EVERY matchup a hard matchup for an archetype that is not ever T1 since the beginning of Hex. I don't play enough set 8 to really say anything of the current meta. But, in set 7, where I play a lot of spider mill, there are bad matchup all over the places. Ardent Aggro, or any kind of aggro is a hard matchup automatically for mill deck. I don't think I have to point out how much aggro are over the whole playing field in set 7. Pre- and post-LV, aggro has been there as a dominant force. Secondly, any crypt recursion deck, particularly B/W since we are talking about set 7, loves mill. My mill is just there to assist him in putting his big guys into the crypt. There's also the combo-based crypt recursion deck that is all about reviving things like Aegilus(or the B/S version with socket) that would love their opponent to mill them. That is a heck lot of hard matchups before the existence of Robogoyle.

      The post was edited 1 time, last by Goliathus ().

    • Wolzarg wrote:

      Have a non mill plan in board problem solved. This is like ruby crying about lifegain pathetic.
      How simple. Show me an example of that plan if it's such so easy to solve. I can also say have "Misery and Arcing Lights in board, candle problem solved" in the Rock thread, sounds like a solution until you actually try it and realize it isn't as easy to execute. So please, show me a working non-mill sideboard plan for a mill-dedicated main deck.

      The post was edited 1 time, last by Goliathus ().

    • Goliathus wrote:

      Wolzarg wrote:

      Have a non mill plan in board problem solved. This is like ruby crying about lifegain pathetic.
      How simple. Show me an example of that plan if it's such so easy to solve.
      1) Herofall
      2) Into the Unknown
      3) Kill it + Blink of Madness
      4) Race him. Robogoyle is a "life gain" for mill. In a 60 card deck, it's a 6% of "health" per Robogoyle. If robogoyle is sideboarded, most of the decks will have 3 (4 is an excess if you ask me). So, have a plan (either to have more cards to mill, or to keep a hand that have some proactivity) to mill more cards than what it regains.
      Twitter: @Plotynus

    • Plotynus wrote:

      1) Herofall2) Into the Unknown
      3) Kill it + Blink of Madness
      4) Race him. Robogoyle is a "life gain" for mill. In a 60 card deck, it's a 6% of "health" per Robogoyle. If robogoyle is sideboarded, most of the decks will have 3 (4 is an excess if you ask me). So, have a plan (either to have more cards to mill, or to keep a hand that have some proactivity) to mill more cards than what it regains.
      Actually, my post question is asking about the "non-mill plan". All your solutiosn here are more on "how to get rid of Robogoyle and probably sticking to a mill plan(no need to clear Robogoyle for a non-mill plan to work". Solution 1-3 are fine, I have problem executing those against counterspells but that's more of a specific deck that prevent these solutions to work, so whatever. Solution 4, I find it hard to do so. It is hard to race someone who gets a 3/3 flight for free in damage. I am not trying to be a dick and whining for excessively no reason here but has anyone of you actually tried to be on the mill deck side of the table against Robogoyle? You have to deal with whatever deck's original plan of either beating you to death with a board or control the crap out of you AND popup-of-nowhere 3/3 flyer at the same time. People have been complaint about cost-reduction cards on other threads like LV and Choir because you can play it for free for the powerful tempo swing. Robogoyle doesn't have the raw power of those cards for sure, but you don't have to get it in your hand(in fact, you want to let your opponent mill you so hard so you don't have to get him into your hand, it's a waste of hand space, which is why you always choose mill 5 against Yarna if you have Robogoyle in deck) anyway so it's a 0-cost, play-it-for-free 3/3 flyer upon milled. More cards to mill, I don't think is a problem for any mill-dedicated deck. The problem is more on finding the cards like HF and ITU to solve the first Robogoyle before you risk milling into more while having to stabilize the board against the opponent's board, which might already be a problem without 3/3 flyer joining the fray.

    • Goliathus wrote:

      Plotynus wrote:

      1) Herofall2) Into the Unknown
      3) Kill it + Blink of Madness
      4) Race him. Robogoyle is a "life gain" for mill. In a 60 card deck, it's a 6% of "health" per Robogoyle. If robogoyle is sideboarded, most of the decks will have 3 (4 is an excess if you ask me). So, have a plan (either to have more cards to mill, or to keep a hand that have some proactivity) to mill more cards than what it regains.
      Actually, my post question is asking about the "non-mill plan". All your solutiosn here are more on "how to get rid of Robogoyle and probably sticking to a mill plan(no need to clear Robogoyle for a non-mill plan to work". Solution 1-3 are fine, I have problem executing those against counterspells but that's more of a specific deck that prevent these solutions to work, so whatever. Solution 4, I find it hard to do so. It is hard to race someone who gets a 3/3 flight for free in damage. I am not trying to be a dick and whining for excessively no reason here but has anyone of you actually tried to be on the mill deck side of the table against Robogoyle? You have to deal with whatever deck's original plan of either beating you to death with a board or control the crap out of you AND popup-of-nowhere 3/3 flyer at the same time. People have been complaint about cost-reduction cards on other threads like LV and Choir because you can play it for free for the powerful tempo swing. Robogoyle doesn't have the raw power of those cards for sure, but you don't have to get it in your hand(in fact, you want to let your opponent mill you so hard so you don't have to get him into your hand, it's a waste of hand space, which is why you always choose mill 5 against Yarna if you have Robogoyle in deck) anyway so it's a 0-cost, play-it-for-free 3/3 flyer upon milled. More cards to mill, I don't think is a problem for any mill-dedicated deck. The problem is more on finding the cards like HF and ITU to solve the first Robogoyle before you risk milling into more while having to stabilize the board against the opponent's board, which might already be a problem without 3/3 flyer joining the fray.
      Demented ascension done

    • Wolzarg wrote:

      Demented ascension done
      As someone who found the Demented Ascension bug in Set 7(from the patch note of DoW, Paragon of Insanity’s charge power will now play cards with the text “target opposing” correctly is the bug I reported 3 months into set 7, safe to say not many have played DA or successfully becoming the Paragon often enough because the bug would have been found earlier), which means I have first hand experience with the card myself, I can assure you that it is highly unlikely to work. Demented Ascension is already hard enough to trigger in a set without Robogoyle. Not often can I mill half the deck off my opponent. The most common occurrence is by Playtime and my opponent voluntarily gives half his deck off. Set 8 has a lot of stronger mill cards now but we are talking about Robogoyle here.

      You are saying a card that you have to mill half off your opponent deck with 3-4 Robogoyle in it to be the solution? Please, at least take a bury deck for a spin, ask your friends to play whatever as long as it has 3 Robogoyles in the deck and see how often you can change into the Paragon.

    • I understand that as a mill player, Robogoyle must be frustrating. But Mill would be much too strong if it did not exist. As is, if mill's share of the metagame diminishes, people will start leaving their Robogoyles out of reserves, and then would be an excellent time to run mill in a Bash.

    • Goliathus wrote:

      Kaijudums wrote:

      Powerful reserves answers are incredibly important to allow for a dynamic metagame. The card is not overpowered in the slightest in my eyes.

      Even with this card in existence, the bury deck is quite good. I have the full 4 Robogoyle in my reserves in diamond/sapphire control and it's still rarely enough.
      Try to be the mill deck vs D/S control and you will feel differently about it. D/S control especially is just super hard for the mill deck to do much after the Robogoyle is out early enough with all the counters in the world to keep Robogoyles out of the void.
      As for powerful reserve, I see absolutely nothing that provides the value-efficiency of Robogoyle when it comes to powerful reserve answer. Every other reserve cards in the world needs two things: cost and "be in hand". Robogoyle needs absolutely none of those. To counter a full constant deck with Scouring Light, I have to draw into Scouring Light, and then decide when to use it. Can I hold it for now? Do I need the 2 mana for something else? Should I save it for later when my opponent has more impactful constants on the board? By needing cost to cast it and having it in hand, powerful reserve card requires thinking and timing to utilize even when they are powerful. Robogoyle, on the other hand, needs absolutely zero of those things. You have Robogoyle in your deck, you just shove your deck to your mill deck opponent and say "please, mill my whole deck in next turn so I can beat you for 12 in the air per turn". Absolutely zero cost needed and absolutely zero thinking is needed to play Robogoyle efficiently. I find that to be a huge difference than other powerful reserve cards ever printed in Hex.

      I have zero issue with Robogoyle in limited though, you rarely find more than 1 and 2 is more than enough. Plus, you aren't going to be paired up with mill deck anyway so if you are drafting and including Robogoyle, you might be risking your pick. Constructed, it's insanely powerful.

      @Wolzarg Not that far above. But milling through so many text walls can be tedious with a Robogoyle shuffling all that text back into the thread.

    • omoreindakitchen wrote:

      Goliathus wrote:

      Kaijudums wrote:

      Powerful reserves answers are incredibly important to allow for a dynamic metagame. The card is not overpowered in the slightest in my eyes.

      Even with this card in existence, the bury deck is quite good. I have the full 4 Robogoyle in my reserves in diamond/sapphire control and it's still rarely enough.
      Try to be the mill deck vs D/S control and you will feel differently about it. D/S control especially is just super hard for the mill deck to do much after the Robogoyle is out early enough with all the counters in the world to keep Robogoyles out of the void.As for powerful reserve, I see absolutely nothing that provides the value-efficiency of Robogoyle when it comes to powerful reserve answer. Every other reserve cards in the world needs two things: cost and "be in hand". Robogoyle needs absolutely none of those. To counter a full constant deck with Scouring Light, I have to draw into Scouring Light, and then decide when to use it. Can I hold it for now? Do I need the 2 mana for something else? Should I save it for later when my opponent has more impactful constants on the board? By needing cost to cast it and having it in hand, powerful reserve card requires thinking and timing to utilize even when they are powerful. Robogoyle, on the other hand, needs absolutely zero of those things. You have Robogoyle in your deck, you just shove your deck to your mill deck opponent and say "please, mill my whole deck in next turn so I can beat you for 12 in the air per turn". Absolutely zero cost needed and absolutely zero thinking is needed to play Robogoyle efficiently. I find that to be a huge difference than other powerful reserve cards ever printed in Hex.

      I have zero issue with Robogoyle in limited though, you rarely find more than 1 and 2 is more than enough. Plus, you aren't going to be paired up with mill deck anyway so if you are drafting and including Robogoyle, you might be risking your pick. Constructed, it's insanely powerful.
      @Wolzarg Not that far above. But milling through so many text walls can be tedious with a Robogoyle shuffling all that text back into the thread.
      The thing is none of that is completely broken and its deeply straw manned by the fact that none mills an entire deck in a turn. Tell me a realistic scenario where that happens?