Looking for a PVE product to buy

    • Zurai wrote:

      Eraia wrote:

      Zurai wrote:

      [citation needed]
      Nearly every MMO expansion in EVERY MMO ever has had content that you couldn't access unless you purchased that expansion.That is just 100% pure fact. But since you seem unwilling to do any research yourself, I'll give you some examples.

      You couldn't go to Outland or access any Outland raids or dungeons without buying TBC. You couldn't go to Ishgard or access any of the Ishgard raids or dungeons unless you bought Heavensward. You couldn't access Rohan without the Rohan expansion pack for LotRO. You couldn't access any of the Cataclysm raids unless you bought Cataclysm. You can't access any of the new dungeons or raids in FFXIV unless you buy Stormblood.

      The list goes on. That is how they get you to buy expansions. They put CONTENT in those expansions. It's the general business model for most MMOs.
      That isn't what was being talked about. The post was talking about selling individual dungeons. In MMOs, you buy an expansion pack which has a massive array of new features -- many new zones, increased level cap, dozens of new dungeons, new raids, new class abilities, new game features. You don't just buy a dungeon. You buy a massive bundle of features and content, and any additions to those are added for free.
      I asked for a citation of MMOs selling content piecemeal, which was what was being suggested:

      Vroengard wrote:

      Hex finally introduces co-op.Each of your friends need to buy the "Raid dungeon" independently in order to play together.

      Let's avoid that, shall we?
      Not "Raid expansion". "Raid dungeon". Singular.

      So, again, I must ask for a citation. Which successful, major MMO has sold content piecemeal?
      Since you seem determined to quote me out of context, I wiill quote the REST OF THE POST you quoted part of. The part that answered your question already... but that you ignored for... no real reason.

      Eraia wrote:

      They don't tend tos ell them individually, but you do require each expansion to access its raid content. My wife can't join me, for example, in the Deltascape because she doesn't yet own FFXIV's latest expansion. WE can play together in any non-expansion exclusive content, but she can't join me there until she buys the expansion.
      As I said, it's not generally sold individually, but they ABSOLUTELY do sell content.
      Gamer. Streamer. Photographer. Writer. Anime Lover. Possessor of Stuffed Animals.

      Also... I'm terrible at this game.
    • You're both talking about different things. Zurai is asking if any MMO has sold "Raid dungeon as expansion", not "Expansion pack that among other things contains raid dungeon(s)". The answer to the first is, I believe, no successful one that I've ever hard of, and the asnwer to the second is, probably, all of them.

      Regarding something brought up before, as far as I remember, any and all items that were gained from the expansion and sold in the AH were not purchaseable by those that did not have the expansion. So it supports the side that would argue PvE cards and mercenaries and equipment would not be usable by an account unless it had purchased the expansion, but could be used against it in a supposedly PvE-PvP match.
    • Vroengard wrote:

      You're both talking about different things. Zurai is asking if any MMO has sold "Raid dungeon as expansion", not "Expansion pack that among other things contains raid dungeon(s)". The answer to the first is, I believe, no successful one that I've ever hard of, and the asnwer to the second is, probably, all of them.

      Regarding something brought up before, as far as I remember, any and all items that were gained from the expansion and sold in the AH were not purchaseable by those that did not have the expansion. So it supports the side that would argue PvE cards and mercenaries and equipment would not be usable by an account unless it had purchased the expansion, but could be used against it in a supposedly PvE-PvP match.
      I'm aware that that's what he's saying. The problem is that he's taking my words out of context to imply that I said that that was what had happened, when from the start I had been clear, he just chose to ignore what I actually said.
      Gamer. Streamer. Photographer. Writer. Anime Lover. Possessor of Stuffed Animals.

      Also... I'm terrible at this game.
    • Timlagor wrote:

      It's not exactly a lot of drift from the OP
      True; I've seen far worse than this, but it has drifted toward something that's been discussed to death.

      Vroengard wrote:


      ShatteredGlass wrote:

      AZ and other consumable new content is something that will take them a large amount of engineering and testing work, and only really appeal to the veteran and entrenched PVE players. It has a smaller audience than PVE related platinum products
      What the Hell does that mean? That PvE players don't play the Campaign? Are you saying that people prefer playing FRA to the Campaign? Because that's the only 2 PvE modes in the game. Why are you saying that PvE related platinum products have a different (larger) audience than Campaign content? Is it a typo? Did you mean to say "PvP related products" ?
      That is poor paragraph structure on my part. The second and third sentences should have been flipped and edited in retrospect. What I meant by PVE related platinum product, which still wouldn't be clear even if I did clean that up now that I think about it, is the starter sets filled with deck building tools and exclusive PVE cards and equipment or well built racial starters that I proposed in the original post. Things that would be genuinely helpful to a new player who purchased them and are more reasonable than PVP packs are atm. New Campaign content is only useful to people who have done everything else in the campaign that is already free and weren't burnt out on the experience.

      Arkansaw wrote:

      There are plenty of easy and obvious ways to get money (extra lives and powers in FRA/dungeons, chest spins). The fact that they didn't try means either they can't be bothered, or they simply have no experience with PvE games outside of the one game they ever made in their entire lives.
      Everything you just mentioned sounds like the cheap micro transaction and pay to win garbage that pisses off player bases and also probably wouldn't be as easy to implement as you think. HXE has been careful with what products they are selling to players probably for that reason, though I do believe they are being too careful when it comes to PVE stuff, to the detriment of player happiness and their pocket books.
    • ShatteredGlass wrote:

      Arkansaw wrote:

      There are plenty of easy and obvious ways to get money (extra lives and powers in FRA/dungeons, chest spins). The fact that they didn't try means either they can't be bothered, or they simply have no experience with PvE games outside of the one game they ever made in their entire lives.
      Everything you just mentioned sounds like the cheap micro transaction and pay to win garbage that pisses off player bases and also probably wouldn't be as easy to implement as you think. HXE has been careful with what products they are selling to players probably for that reason, though I do believe they are being too careful when it comes to PVE stuff, to the detriment of player happiness and their pocket books.
      It is a lot easier than you think and companies don't like to leave money on the table. If they can't do "good" PvE and they won't do "bad" PvE, it means no PvE. No more excuses.
      "Winning with terrormill is not fun? Try losing with it"
    • The only possible PvE things I can think of would be cosmetic (such as alternate portraits as on example) but the issue is that, no other user would ever see it other than yourself.

      One of the things that attracts players in MMORPGs to get obscure or even chasey/pricey items is to be able to show the rest of their party or people around them, "Hey, look what I got!"

      There's no customization currently in PvE and since progression is linear, nearly everyone will be identical to you anyway.

      Until Raids are available, no one can even see what you have or what you can do. It's essentially a solo PvE experience right now in a cut-off world and because of that, it feels exceptionally lonely and empty.

      If there were things to buy for PvE that wouldn't be considered P2W, it would have to be things that interact with other players imo. Either the theoretical Stronghold feature, or Raids, or something that requires to PvE players to interact with each other in some meaningful fashion.

      Even if one were to have the most extensive collections in HEX, there's no way to showcase any of it or use it to interact with other players for the most part in PvE. I can't 'inspect' other players, see what other players are doing in the AZ, etc.

      That being said, these are design decisions and while I think HEX PvE is already better than their competitors (other than the very old Shandalar game or potentially the MTG MMORPG), there is definite room for improvement.

      Right now, I don't think there is any practical ways to have PvE stuff purchasable without dipping into the bad side of micro-transactions until other factors have been improved.
    • Kami wrote:

      (Post 46, probably right above this one)
      I don't think fixed card sets and precon decks would be seen as pay to win. If anything, if they were reasonably priced they would make the game look less like pay to win at a newbie's glance than the current set up of PVP packs and expensive singles. It would be more along the lines of a free to play monetization scheme, which it kind of is.

      People will spend money on things in the PVE other than stuff that they can show off to other players; they already do as a matter of fact. PVE cosmetics appeal to some players, and would be more appealing if the social aspects of the game were in, but there are also customers, like me, who couldn't care less about most of them, sleeves being somewhat of the exception and even then I don't think I would pay all that much plat for them; I haven't bought any of the AAA decks for example.

      Arkansaw wrote:

      It is a lot easier than you think and companies don't like to leave money on the table. If they can't do "good" PvE and they won't do "bad" PvE, it means no PvE. No more excuses.
      Alienating your customer base for possible short term profits is not leaving money on the table, it's good long term business sense. They've been trying to build their player base, not lose it. I have no idea what they have planned as far as smaller PVE products, if anything at all, and they're not going to announce anything until it's almost ready.

      FRA 2.0 was a very good step in the right direction as far as smaller PVE content is concerned, but there were problems with it that have spawned fairly large threads on the forums already, so anything along those lines they may or mayn't be planning is going to be slowed down at least a little in response to said issues. Regardless, HXE is a small company so I expect everything to come at the speed of molasses.
    • Eraia wrote:

      I'm aware that that's what he's saying. The problem is that he's taking my words out of context to imply that I said that that was what had happened, when from the start I had been clear, he just chose to ignore what I actually said.
      So in other words, you lied. I asked, very specifically, which MMOs sold content piecemeal, since that was your original assertion. You responded with, "they all do". I asked for more clarification, you started talking about expansion packs -- large bundles of content and features, in other words -- not piecemeal content. And yet you're "aware" that I was talking about piecemeal sales all along? Don't try to turn this back on me. You're the one twisting words and ignoring what was actually written.

      Anyway, there are all kinds of things they could do to monetize PvE. For example, sell AAA PvE cards -- or better yet, sell AAA dust which can only be used on certain cards and upgrades the art, that way you have to have the card in the first place and there's no calls of pay to win. I'm quite sure that hordes of people would pay a few dollars per playset to upgrade popular cards to AAA (witness all the Magic players who have full-foil or custom-art Commander decks, for example, or people who buy custom tokens). And if you choose PvE-focused cards which are also playable in PvP, you'll even catch that segment of the player base as well.

      The post was edited 1 time, last by Zurai ().

    • Zurai wrote:

      o in other words, you lied. I asked, very specifically, which MMOs sold content piecemeal, since that was your original assertion. You responded with, "they all do". I asked for more clarification, you started talking about expansion packs -- large bundles of content and features, in other words -- not piecemeal content. And yet you're "aware" that I was talking about piecemeal sales all along? Don't try to turn this back on me. You're the one twisting words and ignoring what was actually written.
      If you want to get hyperliteral so can I. WoW and FFXIV all have multiple expansions. The fact that they sold those expansions separately could 3easily be interpreted as selling piecemeal. So I guess, there's your answer.

      I did't say 'they all do' in response to your initial question, in fact I even said in the quote if you'd bothered to READ WHAT I WROTE that they "don't typically do it individually, but they definitely do sell content access."

      Now if you want to stop being a jerk and have a pleasant conversation, we can both forget that you ever went on this little crusade/tyrade and move on with life and have a nice day. Would that not be preferable to the insults?
      Gamer. Streamer. Photographer. Writer. Anime Lover. Possessor of Stuffed Animals.

      Also... I'm terrible at this game.
    • Vroengard wrote:

      PvE is not competitive.
      By definition, there is no WIN so there is no P2W.
      Who gives a rat's arse if the other guy levels/farms faster/easier?
      The economy cares. They have to balance the gold gain around SOMEONE. If there are people vastly faster than the 'balance point', then the gold becomes crazy inflated. If the average is vastly slower than the 'someone' then progression feels too slow. There is already a risk of the game being considered pay to win due to trading, Hex should try their best not to add other elements that make the game feel like a cheap cash grab.
      Gamer. Streamer. Photographer. Writer. Anime Lover. Possessor of Stuffed Animals.

      Also... I'm terrible at this game.
    • The "Elf warrior Xocoy" deck is vastly faster than others. The economy is still standing.

      The "Human mage Obba-Loobba" deck may be even faster in AZ3 and 5 sets in the future.

      The best deck won't destroy the economy. You cannot have every single deck be exactly the same efficiency. We've talked about this extensively in other discussions.

      The economy won't care. Does it care now? How many are farming GMG? How many are not? How much did the Gold:Platinum rate changed because of that? How much because of other factors?
    • Vroengard wrote:

      The "Elf warrior Xocoy" deck is vastly faster than others. The economy is still standing.

      The "Human mage Obba-Loobba" deck may be even faster in AZ3 and 5 sets in the future.

      The best deck won't destroy the economy. You cannot have every single deck be exactly the same efficiency. We've talked about this extensively in other discussions.

      The economy won't care. Does it care now? How many are farming GMG? How many are not? How much did the Gold:Platinum rate changed because of that? How much because of other factors?
      That's because right now the economy is built off of an auction house that is horrendously inefficient and borderline broken, artificially inflating gold costs of items and thus making the 'extreme high gold rate' self-adjusting. If they ever build an efficient auction house, we'll probably see the gold conversion rate dramatically adjust, leading to a state where people who DON'T use 1tk decks are basically locked out of the economy. (Which shouldn't exist, honestly...)

      I'm acting under the assumption that by the time we get this, we have a better AH.
      Gamer. Streamer. Photographer. Writer. Anime Lover. Possessor of Stuffed Animals.

      Also... I'm terrible at this game.
    • Eraia wrote:

      Vroengard wrote:

      PvE is not competitive.
      By definition, there is no WIN so there is no P2W.
      Who gives a rat's arse if the other guy levels/farms faster/easier?
      The economy cares. They have to balance the gold gain around SOMEONE. If there are people vastly faster than the 'balance point', then the gold becomes crazy inflated. If the average is vastly slower than the 'someone' then progression feels too slow. There is already a risk of the game being considered pay to win due to trading, Hex should try their best not to add other elements that make the game feel like a cheap cash grab.
      The game is already p2w to a mid extent, and you can see it for kismet packs and on PS4. Even without p2w, PvE players are at a huge disadvantage since the game has been more favorable for PvP when it comes to spending actual money (as a way to herd people towards PvP eventually). PvE spending goes far more towards offsetting costs for the PvP players and does very little for getting additional PvE content. They can certainly do PvE cash grab when they are already doing PvP cash grab, but they don't want to.

      If PvE is reduced to just cosmetics, I would rather take the p2w since the extra lives and spins have more utility... they can keep those cosmetics for PvP but window-dressing fluff as PvE 'content' is just insulting to PvE players who have played real PvE games, not just this one game.
      "Winning with terrormill is not fun? Try losing with it"
    • Arkansaw wrote:

      There are plenty of easy and obvious ways to get money (extra lives and powers in FRA/dungeons, chest spins). The fact that they didn't try means either they can't be bothered, or they simply have no experience with PvE games outside of the one game they ever made in their entire lives.
      ..or they are decent people who set at the outset that they wouldn't be charging for PVE and either don't like breaking their word (pretty sure this is true) or think it's bad business (also true).


      Currently the best farming rates are easily double what a normal player would get doing something vaguely interesting (not counting deck-building time -and that's assuming a pretty optimal "vaguely interesting"). With DC that's ~300%. This does devalue the gold income of people who aren't prepared to turn gold acquisition into a mindless grind.
      Whether this is actually a problem is subjective but it doesn't strike me as healthy for the game to have these degenerate decks repeating the same content generating so much more gold/hr than 'healthier' behaviour. Various methods to rebalance the gold awards to reduce the degree of advantage have been suggested on other threads (gold for activity, bigger quest rewards, awards for using variety of cards/champs) -each comes with advantages and disadvantages [and varying Dev requirements] ...HXE gave no response.

      Trading in gold needn't use the AH and is actually pretty liquid through trade chat or tiny.cc/BankerBot -it's primarily card and equip prices that would be affected by a decent AH.
    • I am usually a forum lurker and really don't post anything, but I think its important for all of the PVE players to stand up and make sure they are heard.

      Myself and two friends backed Hex MMO Trading Card Game solely because of the PVE experience. We helped fund the game's creation under the assumption that it was an MMO experience inside of a trading card game. I'm sure there are countless other PVE players as well that helped pay for the game's launch with a similar understanding. From the inception, PVE centric players have been willing to throw money at the game.

      Right now, it is probably true PVP generates more income. That's because there is NOTHING for the PVE player to sink money into. That's the decision of the game designer. I would be more then happy to invest money into monetized PVE items, PVE dungeons, story add-ons, raids, ect. Other gaming companies use this tactic, DLCs, to generate income. It works. But there has to be product to buy. I invest every now and again in platinum to buy cards. I recently put together a budget ladder deck with the motivation to keep supporting HEX. I want the game to succeed. I just get the impression that the game developers are unintentionally sabotaging PVE growth by hanging onto the concept that PVE can't generate money. I really believe that the whole PVE concept is what made their initial kickstarter successful. Hex shouldn't abandon its roots.
    • Blightburrow wrote:

      Myself and two friends backed Hex MMO Trading Card Game solely because of the PVE experience. We helped fund the game's creation under the assumption that it was an MMO experience inside of a trading card game. I'm sure there are countless other PVE players as well that helped pay for the game's launch with a similar understanding. From the inception, PVE centric players have been willing to throw money at the game.

      I would be more then happy to invest money into monetized PVE items, PVE dungeons, story add-ons, raids, ect.


      I just get the impression that the game developers are unintentionally sabotaging PVE growth by hanging onto the concept that PVE can't generate money. I really believe that the whole PVE concept is what made their initial kickstarter successful. Hex shouldn't abandon its roots.

      This is essentially where I stand with Hex. My main interest in the game has been in the PvE content, with the idea that I can also use my love of drafting to help build my collection to do more PvE content and make more "for fun" decks.

      Without any serious direction for PvE content, I have no reason to buy new packs. PvE was my reason to purchase packs because I would want to create new characters, make new stories, and express myself with the new cards. Without new PvE content, there are all these wonderful new cards, but why would I bother to buy them if I'm just going to be doing the same things I've already done a billion times?

      As a result of this, I simply haven't really played Hex aside from a draft or two when a new set comes out. Sets 1-4, I did hundreds of drafts because there was the promise of PvE content to explore and a reason to use all those cards I was getting. Without any sort of real direction for PvE, I find myself struggling to have a reason to login and obtain the new cards. Why would I want to do the same dungeon for the umpteenth time, or face the same exact encounter for the billionth time?

      My friends that backed the game with me have all moved on because they have no faith that the game will ever deliver on their initial promise of PvE. They are not competitive players who are going to dump hundreds on Hex to play a constructed game mode they do not enjoy. However - they are players who would happily spend money on new dungeons, adventure zones, and content for their characters. I understand this is all anecdotal based on my own personal experience, but it just makes me sad to see the more 90% competitive PvP-centric direction the game has taken because it really takes away everything that makes Hex a differentiator in the TCG market.

      Anyhow - sorry for the rambling post, but I just wanted to make sure that Blightburrow's post was echoed. He is definitely not alone in his opinion.
    • Brynhildr wrote:

      Blightburrow wrote:

      Myself and two friends backed Hex MMO Trading Card Game solely because of the PVE experience. We helped fund the game's creation under the assumption that it was an MMO experience inside of a trading card game. I'm sure there are countless other PVE players as well that helped pay for the game's launch with a similar understanding. From the inception, PVE centric players have been willing to throw money at the game.

      I would be more then happy to invest money into monetized PVE items, PVE dungeons, story add-ons, raids, ect.


      I just get the impression that the game developers are unintentionally sabotaging PVE growth by hanging onto the concept that PVE can't generate money. I really believe that the whole PVE concept is what made their initial kickstarter successful. Hex shouldn't abandon its roots.
      This is essentially where I stand with Hex. My main interest in the game has been in the PvE content, with the idea that I can also use my love of drafting to help build my collection to do more PvE content and make more "for fun" decks.

      Without any serious direction for PvE content, I have no reason to buy new packs. PvE was my reason to purchase packs because I would want to create new characters, make new stories, and express myself with the new cards. Without new PvE content, there are all these wonderful new cards, but why would I bother to buy them if I'm just going to be doing the same things I've already done a billion times?

      As a result of this, I simply haven't really played Hex aside from a draft or two when a new set comes out. Sets 1-4, I did hundreds of drafts because there was the promise of PvE content to explore and a reason to use all those cards I was getting. Without any sort of real direction for PvE, I find myself struggling to have a reason to login and obtain the new cards. Why would I want to do the same dungeon for the umpteenth time, or face the same exact encounter for the billionth time?

      My friends that backed the game with me have all moved on because they have no faith that the game will ever deliver on their initial promise of PvE. They are not competitive players who are going to dump hundreds on Hex to play a constructed game mode they do not enjoy. However - they are players who would happily spend money on new dungeons, adventure zones, and content for their characters. I understand this is all anecdotal based on my own personal experience, but it just makes me sad to see the more 90% competitive PvP-centric direction the game has taken because it really takes away everything that makes Hex a differentiator in the TCG market.

      Anyhow - sorry for the rambling post, but I just wanted to make sure that Blightburrow's post was echoed. He is definitely not alone in his opinion.
      Consider both your posts thrice echoed. I could have written either of these sentiments.
    • Vroengard wrote:

      You're both talking about different things. Zurai is asking if any MMO has sold "Raid dungeon as expansion", not "Expansion pack that among other things contains raid dungeon(s)". The answer to the first is, I believe, no successful one that I've ever hard of, and the asnwer to the second is, probably, all of them.

      Regarding something brought up before, as far as I remember, any and all items that were gained from the expansion and sold in the AH were not purchaseable by those that did not have the expansion. So it supports the side that would argue PvE cards and mercenaries and equipment would not be usable by an account unless it had purchased the expansion, but could be used against it in a supposedly PvE-PvP match.
      D&D MMO HAVE DONE THAT