Looking for a PVE product to buy

    • Looking for a PVE product to buy

      I've been thinking about the short history of Hex PVE lately with the full benefit of 20/20 hindsight and wish to share my one of my conclusions, partially to get my thoughts down on not-paper and partially because of boredom.

      What Hex Sells from a PVE Perspective
      Hex makes no money off of PVE players mainly because HXE is not trying to sell products to them. In other words, there are no platinum priced products for sale that would be of interest to a new or budget limited PVE player. Packs are crazy expensive for very little reward and putting together a deck from singles will cost you a bit of money and can turn out to be junk or something you find boring. These are obstacles that can be overcome by a determined veteran of card games, especially magic, who do a lot of research into the game, but to a truly new player there are no good entry options into PVE that don't involve a lot of money or suffering to learn.

      Further aggravating all of this is the dumpster fire that is the PVE parts of the auction house which are left with only the most basic of filters, making the buying and selling of things in the auction house that much harder for the PVE audience.

      I'm a kickstarter backer and a johnny player. I love PVE as an environment where I can throw random things at a bot that will put up with my nonsense, but if I didn't have the significant head start the kickstarter campaign gave me, I would've dropped Hex very quickly. The money I would have to sink to even get a starter set of toys would be far too much for far too little.

      What can Hex sell a PVE audience?
      Selling adventure zones leaves a bad taste in some people's mouths, and wouldn't really help the above dilemma, nor would cosmetics, but there is one very simple thing this digital card making company can sell us; digital cards. I think the PVE part of the game, and HXE's pocket book, would benefit greatly if there were actually PVE focused products for sale in the store. things like:

      The PVE Starter set: For a flat, modest price, HXE could sell play sets of key PVP commons, uncommons, and exclusive PVE cards as well as an assortment of equipment for said cards. The idea here is to sell them a good starter collection for building all sorts of decks as well as enticing veteran players with exclusive PVE cards.

      The Racial Starter Decks: Exactly what it says in the tittle. Pre-built racial starter decks that are actually good, complete with exclusive PVE cards. If someone is feeling particularly insane, perhaps even starter decks for every race/class combination.

      The PVE expansion pack: would be a bad idea if they are done the same way as PVP packs. There may be a way of doing this that attracts the new player PVE dollar, but how is beyond me atm.

      Also something else that would be good for PVE players:
      A Better Auction House: this is worth it's own thread, so I won't rant about it here, but if you're a player who has used the thing enough, you know how bad it can be, especially from a PVE perspective.


      In Conclusion
      In spite of Hex's best unintentional efforts, the PVE audience still makes up a great deal of the spending on this game. I can confidently say that the PVE audience at the moment is responsible for somewhere between 5% and 95% of HXE platinum sales. There is definitely money to be made by both the current PVE player base and new players who are mainly interested in the PVE parts of the game, but are currently running into price of entry and research barriers.

      The post was edited 3 times, last by ShatteredGlass ().

    • ShatteredGlass wrote:

      In spite of Hex's best unintentional efforts, the PVE audience still makes up a great deal of the spending on this game.
      I doubt that's the case any more. I think that they have driven most out. Too bad we can never know.

      They have systematicaly made it so they don't need PvE players any more (and that's a fact, not an opinion, they have made a good PvP model that, apparently, pays (some of?) the bills).
    • Vroengard wrote:

      ShatteredGlass wrote:

      In spite of Hex's best unintentional efforts, the PVE audience still makes up a great deal of the spending on this game.
      I doubt that's the case any more. I think that they have driven most out. Too bad we can never know.
      They have systematicaly made it so they don't need PvE players any more (and that's a fact, not an opinion, they have made a good PvP model that, apparently, pays (some of?) the bills).
      As someone who's worked the auction house enough, I find your facts questionable. A sizeable amount of the demand for cards is driven by the PVE base of the game. Cult of the Nameless City pre-dead of winter was a good example. The value of that card, which was unplayable in constructed before this new set, was solely driven by it's farming value in FRA. Commons and uncommons have always had a healthy gold market and chest equipment, in spite of how hard it is for buyers to find products that you're selling, holds good value.

      Trying to figure out what percentage of sales is due to the PVE and PVP parts of the game on the other hand is both difficult and problematic. Trying to figure out why any individual account is spending cash on the game using the data available to even HXE is going to lead to problematic logical leaps in order to come up with a statistic which will be questionable on it's face.
    • 1) What facts do you fin questionable? What I wrote is 75% opinion. The only fact is that if every PvE-only player left right now, HXE wouldn't collapse. This is undisputable.

      2)

      ShatteredGlass wrote:

      The value of that card, which was unplayable in constructed before this new set
      It was playable in Constructed pre-08.

      3) Auction House sales do not offer any direct revenue to HXE (it only helps by removing 5% of currency from the game). PvE players can still farm enough Gold to buy anything PvE-related if they want, and HXE won't know/care about it. PvE players farming Gold and trading it for Platinum doesn't count any for HXE either. They care about people buying platinum from their store.
    • Vroengard wrote:

      1) What facts do you fin questionable? What I wrote is 75% opinion. The only fact is that if every PvE-only player left right now, HXE wouldn't collapse. This is undisputable.
      Actually that is highly disputable. I am disputing it. Consider it disputed. There is no way you can prove that as anything other than your opinion.

      Vroengard wrote:

      2)

      ShatteredGlass wrote:

      The value of that card, which was unplayable in constructed before this new set
      It was playable in Constructed pre-08.
      3) Auction House sales do not offer any direct revenue to HXE (it only helps by removing 5% of currency from the game). PvE players can still farm enough Gold to buy anything PvE-related if they want, and HXE won't know/care about it. PvE players farming Gold and trading it for Platinum doesn't count any for HXE either. They care about people buying platinum from their store.
      Semantically Cult of the Nameless City was playable in constructed, realistically there are 31 plat rares that saw more use in decks. As far as constructed was concerned, it was hot garbage. Mill was not a thing on the ladder or in any constructed event.

      While the auction house sales aren't direct revenue, they do help illustrate what part of your audience is there and how much money is the PVE dollar. Also rare and legendary card sales, as well as chest equipment in the auction house, generally require that the player to use platinum which encourages platinum sales which is direct revenue for HXE.
    • ShatteredGlass wrote:

      Semantically Cult of the Nameless City was playable in constructed, realistically there are 31 plat rares that saw more use in decks. As far as constructed was concerned, it was hot garbage. Mill was not a thing on the ladder or in any constructed event.
      Mill(with CoNC) did top 8 a Bash in Set 7 -- an official article is written by AliEldrazi the week after, feel free to read it on the Hex official website. Hardly hot garbage as you would claim it. Also, I have ran it a couple times in constructed events of all sizes and there are plenty of ladder activities with it. I think you are just flat out wrong in this specific example.

      Just to be extra clear: It's not a T1 archetype(there's potential in Set 8, we will see) but it's not hot garbage T99 in Set 7 like you claimed it was.
    • Goliathus wrote:

      ShatteredGlass wrote:

      Semantically Cult of the Nameless City was playable in constructed, realistically there are 31 plat rares that saw more use in decks. As far as constructed was concerned, it was hot garbage. Mill was not a thing on the ladder or in any constructed event.
      Mill(with CoNC) did top 8 a Bash in Set 7 -- an official article is written by AliEldrazi the week after, feel free to read it on the Hex official website. Hardly hot garbage as you would claim it. Also, I have ran it a couple times in constructed events of all sizes and there are plenty of ladder activities with it. I think you are just flat out wrong in this specific example.
      Just to be extra clear: It's not a T1 archetype(there's potential in Set 8, we will see) but it's not hot garbage T99 in Set 7 like you claimed it was.
      I'll concede that hot garbage is a bit harsh, as I did forget about that deck's existence, but considering that outside of DistantSouth's one top eight performance(which was also the only time the deck even got five wins in a Bash), mill saw pretty much no impressive showings in either quantity played or rankings in bashes, it's safe to say that it was not in high demand by the constructed audience; and that is more the point I was getting at. For further example, Into the Unknown, a card that saw roughly 8000% more play in standard, consistently sold for less than Cult of the Nameless City before the release of Dead of Winter. Cult's demand was clearly not being driven by the PVP constructed audience.
    • Also, Well of Cunning was selling for 1000+ platinum, more than twice any other well at times, even though BS was just about the least played dual shard combination outside PvE. So I think it's a bit futile to argue that PvE wasn't a major driver of some of the most expensive rares since the last FRA update.
    • To talk about PVE-only players is to miss the point. There are plenty of player who play both who would, are or have disappeared from HEX over the state of PVE.

      Vroengard wrote:


      2)

      ShatteredGlass wrote:

      The value of that card, which was unplayable in constructed before this new set
      It was playable in Constructed pre-08.
      3) Auction House sales do not offer any direct revenue to HXE (it only helps by removing 5% of currency from the game). PvE players can still farm enough Gold to buy anything PvE-related if they want, and HXE won't know/care about it. PvE players farming Gold and trading it for Platinum doesn't count any for HXE either. They care about people buying platinum from their store.

      2) If you doubt that PVE drives prices despite the examples given and the frankly absurd prices of some Equipment and PVE cards, you just can't be convinced.

      3) If plat isn't removed from the economy then it won't be bought. I don't remember the numbers but I worked out once that the AH plat paid for at least one employee (I think it was around $100kpa) so it's significant though not actually major and not apparently the primary reason for the fee. I think we now have the numbers to work out how much most of the tournaments are sinking but no clue what's being spent on cosmetics and packs that are just opened.


      Again this isn't the point. The HEX economy is a complicated beast and the people who buy plat from HXE want things that they can only get with gold. If the gold stuff wasn't there and people weren't trading the gold so they can do the plat things they want then less plat would be sold and HXE would get less money.

      I have never bought plat. I have paid for VIP, I've also had a good number of free tournament tickets from Twitch steams and elsewhere.
      I have played many many tournaments helping to populate the queues and also sinking that plat which I had traded cards (or gold.. not sure if I'm a net seller of gold but probably ..though mostly gold that I got for selling stuff on AH) for.
      Populating the queues to keep the plat-buyers playing may well be more important to HEX's survival than the plat we sink when they fire.


      Regardless PVE prices are an indication that people are willing to spend Plat on PVE and plat sinks are where HXE makes the money (yes they get teh $ when the plat is generated but again that would never happen without the plat leaving the system).
      The fact that PVE doesn't currently sink Plat isn't really relevant and actually gold sinks are relevant to revenue too -it's just a lot more circuitous- as the plat buyers trade with the gold-farmers because they want to sink that gold and the gold-farmers want to sink that plat: the plat would not be bought for the gold-farmers to sink without the gold sinks being attractive to plat-buyers. (the AH is only incidentally a part of this process)
      ...and of course very few players are strictly one or the other.



      HXE has got itself in a bit of a muddle over PVE as they decided early on it would never cost Plat (directly) but then apparently started getting bothered that it wasn't generating revenue (directly).
      I get the impression that PVE development was never intended to be as high a priority as PVP however... they just thought it would all be a lot quicker.
    • ShatteredGlass wrote:

      I'll concede that hot garbage is a bit harsh, as I did forget about that deck's existence, but considering that outside of DistantSouth's one top eight performance(which was also the only time the deck even got five wins in a Bash), mill saw pretty much no impressive showings in either quantity played or rankings in bashes, it's safe to say that it was not in high demand by the constructed audience; and that is more the point I was getting at. For further example, Into the Unknown, a card that saw roughly 8000% more play in standard, consistently sold for less than Cult of the Nameless City before the release of Dead of Winter. Cult's demand was clearly not being driven by the PVP constructed audience.
      I think Mill has its audience like Twilight. Twilight constant deck is never T1 nor has strong appearance in Bashes but Twilight Archon's price remains steady at 250-300 plat simply because people love playing with it. CoNC is at most slightly more expensive and assuming that Twilight Archon isn't driven up by PvE at all, then it's price is largely driven by the PVP audience, just not the "hyper-competitive-I-am-going-to-top-8-every-Bash" sub-type of player. Mill might not be as popular but I would argue that 150-200 of its price is driven up by PVP. Well of Cunning, on the other hand, is 90% driven by PvE.

      Also, ITU's price would be so much better if not for its overwhelming amount of AAs in the market. AAs bring prices down so ITU is not as good as an example you can provide since this AA factor actually affect its price a lot. ITU in the beginning of the set costs about 300-400 I think and the more AAs are given, the lower its price got.
    • Vroengard wrote:

      1) What facts do you fin questionable? What I wrote is 75% opinion. The only fact is that if every PvE-only player left right now, HXE wouldn't collapse. This is undisputable.
      I get where this sentiment comes from, since there is no direct monetization of PVE, but I don't think you should be so confident of this. There are many cards sales out there that are PVP-focused players selling cards to PVE-focused players, then taking that plat and spending it on tournaments (where it actually leaves the economy). The plat is ultimately spent by PVP players, but may be originally bought by PVE players. Not saying my version is more likely or the dominant way the market works, but I don't see why your statement would be indisputable. There are some legitimate points in this thread that show PVE is driving demand for certain PVP cards.
    • Silvanos wrote:

      Vroengard wrote:

      1) What facts do you fin questionable? What I wrote is 75% opinion. The only fact is that if every PvE-only player left right now, HXE wouldn't collapse. This is undisputable.
      I get where this sentiment comes from, since there is no direct monetization of PVE, but I don't think you should be so confident of this. There are many cards sales out there that are PVP-focused players selling cards to PVE-focused players, then taking that plat and spending it on tournaments (where it actually leaves the economy). The plat is ultimately spent by PVP players, but may be originally bought by PVE players. Not saying my version is more likely or the dominant way the market works, but I don't see why your statement would be indisputable. There are some legitimate points in this thread that show PVE is driving demand for certain PVP cards.
      I bought Shamrock, bouncer and Quui specifically for pve. So yes there are absolutely people who use them for pve. Playing in a all day weekend tournament for the chance of $500 is not appealing and only what 80 people run those. What else would I and probably others do with those pvp cards.
    • actually pve make huge profit, hex just don't see it yet. i mean some of the most expensive stuff in game are pve only. like chest roll pve card, pve mercenary/equipment.. some of these are more expensive then 99% of the pvp card.

      in fact the only reason i still play this game, is the hope of pve content. there are so many pvp card game out there, only thing that make hex stand out is it's pve element. sad that dev don't really see the point..
    • Qiemosi wrote:

      in fact the only reason i still play this game, is the hope of pve content
      "The hope of PvE content" is also the reason why PvE prices are inflated.

      People that buy PvE cards & equipment at exorbitant prices are taking a HUGE risk. They want to stock up for raids and for the time the game becomes number one in the dcg industry. I used to be one of them but I've reconsidered and now wait for actual content to be shown before I make any moves.

      An explanation of what I believe is going on with PvE prices here: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economic_bubble
    • Goliathus wrote:

      I think Mill has its audience like Twilight. Twilight constant deck is never T1 nor has strong appearance in Bashes but Twilight Archon's price remains steady at 250-300 plat simply because people love playing with it. CoNC is at most slightly more expensive and assuming that Twilight Archon isn't driven up by PvE at all, then it's price is largely driven by the PVP audience, just not the "hyper-competitive-I-am-going-to-top-8-every-Bash" sub-type of player. Mill might not be as popular but I would argue that 150-200 of its price is driven up by PVP. Well of Cunning, on the other hand, is 90% driven by PvE.
      Also, ITU's price would be so much better if not for its overwhelming amount of AAs in the market. AAs bring prices down so ITU is not as good as an example you can provide since this AA factor actually affect its price a lot. ITU in the beginning of the set costs about 300-400 I think and the more AAs are given, the lower its price got.
      Considering that I sold lots of copies of Twilight Archon's equipment for 100 plat, more than all other rare equipment would sell for from that set, I'd say PVE was driving it's demand quite a bit as well. As far as casual decks are concerned, the PVE we have now is far more accommodating than most of the PVP elements we have, ironically. I would estimate maybe 50-60 plat of Cult's price was PVP related at best. There were a lot of different Blood/Sapphire decks last season, mill was the third most popular actually, so a good deal portion of the demand for Well of Cunning was coming from PVP players, though it was definitely inflated by FRA demand. It's hard to separate out the PVP vs PVE parts of a card's price as generally a good PVP card is also a good PVE card.

      That is a fair point about Into the Unknown AA, so let's go with Clash of Steel instead, which has no such issue, or Promiscuous Succubus or Journey Into Nightmare. I can pretty much make the same argument with all of these cards.

      Vroengard wrote:


      Qiemosi wrote:

      in fact the only reason i still play this game, is the hope of pve content
      "The hope of PvE content" is also the reason why PvE prices are inflated.
      People that buy PvE cards & equipment at exorbitant prices are taking a HUGE risk. They want to stock up for raids and for the time the game becomes number one in the dcg industry. I used to be one of them but I've reconsidered and now wait for actual content to be shown before I make any moves.

      An explanation of what I believe is going on with PvE prices here: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economic_bubble
      The high prices on Wheel of fate cards and low availability stuff is very much a product of old fashioned supply and demand more than anything else. The less popular Wheel cards even go for more modest prices sometimes. On the other hand, the more readily available PVE stuff tends to go in the other direction. The prices on AZ cards, for example, are ridiculously low, mostly due to supply glut and chest cards usually fetch much more reasonable prices after a few weeks of a set being out.
      I'd wager most of the demand in the market for PVE cards is from people who just want to play with them now.
    • I agree save for one thing:

      Selling Adventure Zones. I don't believe it would be an issue, after a certain "base threshold" has been met. I think after Adventure Zone 3, they'll have been fair with giving away free PvE content. After that, either charge for expansions (New whole Adventure Zones) or charge for different side-experiences (An especially long dungeon with unique rewards).

      I'm more than happy to give my money for actual single-player content; I am not willing to give it away for small things I'll forget about in no time.
      Never shift in to reverse without a backup plan.
    • SaintVicarious wrote:

      I agree save for one thing:

      Selling Adventure Zones. I don't believe it would be an issue, after a certain "base threshold" has been met. I think after Adventure Zone 3, they'll have been fair with giving away free PvE content. After that, either charge for expansions (New whole Adventure Zones) or charge for different side-experiences (An especially long dungeon with unique rewards).

      I'm more than happy to give my money for actual single-player content; I am not willing to give it away for small things I'll forget about in no time.
      As long as you can reach 'max level' and have the full talent tree and all initially expected classes without paying extra, I generally am not THAT bothered by the concept of buying new zones, but if the zones are paid they'd better be exceptional.
      Gamer. Streamer. Photographer. Writer. Anime Lover. Possessor of Stuffed Animals.

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