Why Set Rotation is just BAD decision for all of us...

    • Why Set Rotation is just BAD decision for all of us...

      Hi HEX community ,

      I'm new in CCG/TCG games and just yesterday i found out that HEX as well as many other games have Set rotations , in this thread i will post my opinion why this is NOT good for the game at all , ofc just my 5 cents and some thoughts we discus with some friends last night ..

      So soon Set 8 will be out , this will make like 630+ cards to just be useless and out of constructed/draft play ( and with set 7 the game already send like 598 cards in oblivion as well so this makes more than 1,200 cards in total till now - THIS IS RLY value ot of the game ) . This is cards/sets/decks a lot of you invested time and $ to grind and collect , just to be not able to use at some point ( and play your favorite decks ) . Yes you will say - But there is Immortal ( with no rewards at all and sometimes , immortal tournaments that only benefit the veteran players that stick with the game from the beginning and have made rly huge collection and is not enough at all).

      For me is not acceptable to work hard for something ( in this case cards/decks/sets ) an at some point they to become useless , so you start to farm new packs as hell why ? If they want to keep the meta fresh it is OK but this is not the way in my opinion , just make separate Immortal constructed / Draft and the standard as well ( the tools for this is already there ) . This way you will keep Standard rotated as it now and give the players that want to play immortal the opportunity to competed and continue to grow there collection ( no need to be removed from the store or game at all ). Frankly speaking i feel my self less motivated to continue invest time and funds in game when i understand how this rotation system rly works ( maybe because I'm new and don't have experience like most of you , but still is a BAD decision also for veterans because they lose a lot of value in there collection for trading cards/sets and i mean there rly loose a lot of $ after every rotation occurs ) .. Sorry guys but all of this is just so unbelievable to me , and is not good for a game with real-money AH when cards rly have value and matter to destroy the economy in that way ....

      Regards ,

      N.B - Sorry for my bad English is not my native language at all ..
      “He who fights with monsters should look to it that he himself does not become a monster . . . when you gaze long into the abyss the abyss also gazes into you”
    • Its a tricky question to answer because the value of something is subjective to each person.

      I'm a Limited player, so how I view Constructed may be wrong, however I will give you my view :)

      Most people will agree that a Standard deck will always be more expensive to buy a deck than Immortal because there are more constructed tournaments to earn prizes from, and hence demand for a Standard deck is higher. A constructed player want to recoup the upfront cost of buying a deck by playing in tournaments. Limited is cheaper to get into than constructed because there is a smaller upfront cost.

      If you purchase a constructed deck for $100, then you did that to compete in the weekly tournaments (e.g. Bash) or grind the ladder for the CCS tournament.
      Now lets say that some of the cards in your deck lose value because we are coming up to a set rotation: e.g. My transmogrifades have gone from being worth $10 in July to $3 now. The value of my deck is now $65. Ask yourself:

      • Have I won any prizes using my deck, how much are those prizes worth? Have you've won more than $35 worth of prizes?
      • The (enjoyable) time I had playing that deck, was that worth $35? (How many cinema trips would $35 get you?)
      If for the time period you spent playing the deck (which could be 6 months) returned more than $35 worth of enjoyment or prizes, then your initial $100 investment has paid off, and you can sell your deck and reinvest in a new $100 deck. This cycle then repeats.

      A constructed player needs to play enough tournaments during the lifetime of that constructed deck to make the upfront investment worth while. This is why constructed players want to have on-demand tournaments - to have more opportunity to do this in the time window that deck is viable.

      Since I'm not a good constructed player, I know I will never recoup back that investment and stick to limited, though I dabble with jank decks on the ladder because its free :).

      Some final points:

      If your argument is that now I've grinded a deck I want to play that deck forever, no more grinding or investing in new cards...... then even in immortal, you will need to change that deck to adjust to the meta continuosly. So you will still need to invest in new cards for that deck, via grinding or purchasing platinum.

      If you believe that Immortal cards are worthless, then all those cards that you used to think were valuable (e.g. Vamp Kings), but did not own, you can now get for cheap ;) You can play more decks in immortal than you could in standard!

      The post was edited 2 times, last by Neverness ().

    • People just starting out in TCG's often feel this way about rotation, due to the perceived loss in value / usefulness of the cards rotating out. Veterans, on the other hand, recognize the value of maintaining an ever-changing and fresh gameplay experience. Those of us who remember the dark times of nearly one year between sets can attest to how boring (and dead!) the game was by the end of those cycles.

      Also, from a purely economical standpoint, rotation is necessary to keep people buying cards and playing tournaments so the company can stay in business.
      --ossuary

      "Love all, trust a few, do wrong to none."
      - Shakespeare, All's Well That Ends Well
    • Hey guys ,

      Thank you for your time to reply to my threat about set rotations.

      I thing you don't understand my point here - I'm NOT against rotations at ALL .. Ofc the company needs revenue and new sets card to entertain the community. It is just not make sense to me why it need to be done in that way ( why they need to remove the old sets from the in-game store at all it is just extra $ if someone still buy them ). Also in the PVP side in my opinion it will be best to have the option = Play standard constructed/draft ( new sets ) = Play Immortal constructed/draft ( chance to win from all sets at random and use all cards and decks you have build so far ) ..

      So all of us we have the choice where to go ,what to play and competed for ( more options is always welcome in the current state the game just sad - " Go grind new sets/make new decks play with what we give you next " ). This was my point , i still don't see the reason to remove so many cards from the competitive scene when all of us can still collect and enjoy them ( also it will be a reason for new players to collect all if they want to spend cold or plat , from store or by trading ) .

      As i sad I'm not against the rotation at all , i just still cant understand why they need to do it the way it works now. The dev team for sure put a lot of work and efforts for all this cards ( that offer different decks combos and fun , and soon we will see like 1,200+ go to the graveyard for nothing ).
      “He who fights with monsters should look to it that he himself does not become a monster . . . when you gaze long into the abyss the abyss also gazes into you”
    • So you want a queue for all the formats? The problem is that there are not enough players to ensure that you can find an opponent in the queue you are interested in during the time you are playing.

      There have been 7 different draft formats so far in Hex. If I queued up to play 443 format, it would never fire. There are currently around 30 drafts firing a day, which is just under 1 an hour, and that's for a single draft queue. More options is not a good thing when the player base is small.

      You keep stating that Sets 1-5 will be removed from the competitive scene, but there is an immortal queue which grants tickets to compete in the Immortal championship tournament every month. And a weekly immortal tournament.

      You may argue that the immortal queue doesnt fire often, and that there should be an immortal ladder similar to the standard ladder. That has already been suggested here if you want to look.
    • schild wrote:

      who would win

      me and some friends discussing it, we're new to ccgs | 23 years of data
      There're 23 years of data about digital tcgs? Where are you getting this amazing cache of digital tcg data?
      Gamer. Streamer. Photographer. Writer. Anime Lover. Possessor of Stuffed Animals.

      Also... I'm terrible at this game.
    • Rotations are necessary for the good health of the game.

      In addition to ensure that the meta is renewed consistently enough, it allows the devs to have a safety valve in case things go terribly wrong in term of balance.

      If all cards always remain in the pool, power creep becomes a necessity, because if the strongest cards already exists, why would someone bother acquiring new cards ?

      So new, stronger cards are made... again and again, and again, until everything is broken busted, before nothing ever rotates.

      That's the point of rotations, allowing the standard card pool to grow or diminish in power as the devs see fit so that the game keeps being balanced and enjoyable.
      Awaiting the Doomwalker's arrival in Entrath since the Beta.

      " Honey, where's my chaos key ?
      - Have you searched in your chaos coat ?
      - Shoot I left it in the chaos car... "

      ... Still be waiting for a while it seems ...
    • Olfff wrote:

      Rotations are necessary for the good health of the game.

      In addition to ensure that the meta is renewed consistently enough, it allows the devs to have a safety valve in case things go terribly wrong in term of balance.

      If all cards always remain in the pool, power creep becomes a necessity, because if the strongest cards already exists, why would someone bother acquiring new cards ?

      So new, stronger cards are made... again and again, and again, until everything is broken busted, before nothing ever rotates.

      That's the point of rotations, allowing the standard card pool to grow or diminish in power as the devs see fit so that the game keeps being balanced and enjoyable.
      Given his followup post, I believe the question the OP was asking is more 'why is it necessary for old cards to become unavaialble?' than 'why is it important for the current standard pool to change over time?' which is a valid question... it's not a physical game, there are no 'print runs' needed, they don't require actual cards to be created.

      I can really see validity on both sides of that argument...
      Gamer. Streamer. Photographer. Writer. Anime Lover. Possessor of Stuffed Animals.

      Also... I'm terrible at this game.
    • Well if you make rotated cards unavaialble to buy in the store it's to preserve their monetary value. Op is posting this thread with the protection of his investments in mind, well it's exactly the reason why it makes sense that old cards rotate.

      The more cards of a set exists, the less each card of this set is worth.

      If you take away all the rotated sets in the store the important rotated cards will increase in value as they become more sought after for immortal play and as their stock available in AH dimishes.

      Member when chlorophylia was a 11 plat uncommon ? ... yeah.

      Eventual inbalances can be corrected if a card is too rare by releasing reprint sets like the current kismet's draft.
      Awaiting the Doomwalker's arrival in Entrath since the Beta.

      " Honey, where's my chaos key ?
      - Have you searched in your chaos coat ?
      - Shoot I left it in the chaos car... "

      ... Still be waiting for a while it seems ...
    • Eraia wrote:

      Olfff wrote:

      Rotations are necessary for the good health of the game.

      In addition to ensure that the meta is renewed consistently enough, it allows the devs to have a safety valve in case things go terribly wrong in term of balance.

      If all cards always remain in the pool, power creep becomes a necessity, because if the strongest cards already exists, why would someone bother acquiring new cards ?

      So new, stronger cards are made... again and again, and again, until everything is broken busted, before nothing ever rotates.

      That's the point of rotations, allowing the standard card pool to grow or diminish in power as the devs see fit so that the game keeps being balanced and enjoyable.
      Given his followup post, I believe the question the OP was asking is more 'why is it necessary for old cards to become unavaialble?' than 'why is it important for the current standard pool to change over time?' which is a valid question... it's not a physical game, there are no 'print runs' needed, they don't require actual cards to be created.
      I can really see validity on both sides of that argument...
      Although is true that Hex is not attached to physically printing cards, artificial scarcity is a fundamental step needed in a TCG to value our collections. Promo cards falls in the same spot. Of course, value isn't only measured in terms of scarcity. If Immortal is not a proper format, old cards won't worth nothing. But immortal is just growing, it will take time for it to settle and have an established meta (which will revalue those rotated cards). So, yes, if you look at the current picture you could argue that rotation isn't helping with cards' value, but I believe that in a few years, if things goes well for HXE, it will. And if things doesn't goes well... then we're fscked up anyways, and it's the same :P
      Twitter: @Plotynus
    • Plotynus wrote:

      So, yes, if you look at the current picture you could argue that rotation isn't helping with cards' value
      The argument for me isn't about value, but rather about enjoyability. Having entire sets of cards completely inaccessible save at the whims of veterans may be daunting for new players who want to get into PvE(or immortal) for example.

      Sure it helps value long-term, but is that all that matters?
      Gamer. Streamer. Photographer. Writer. Anime Lover. Possessor of Stuffed Animals.

      Also... I'm terrible at this game.
    • Eraia wrote:

      Plotynus wrote:

      So, yes, if you look at the current picture you could argue that rotation isn't helping with cards' value
      The argument for me isn't about value, but rather about enjoyability. Having entire sets of cards completely inaccessible save at the whims of veterans may be daunting for new players who want to get into PvE(or immortal) for example.
      Sure it helps value long-term, but is that all that matters?
      There's a difference between "getting into" and having a T1 PvE or Immortal deck.
      Getting into PvE will always be cheap, and I'm sure Hex will print PvP or PvE cards with every new set to help this. So, if an important PvP card used in PvE rotates, they could print a second version of it (like Burn and Cremate, for example).

      Now, if a player wants a cheap T1 immortal deck... then I don't agree that this should be this way.
      Immortal IS an expensive format (in any TCG) by default. It's not only there to "save the whims of veterans" (a new player full of money could just buy a T1 immortal deck, if that's the case). You need expensive cards, you need chase cards. The game needs it. And there're always safety valves if prices goes too high. As you said earlier, Hex is not attached to physical printings. Kismet Draft is a great example of this. If prices are too high, they can run a reprint or some kind of limited format to influx the market with new cards. But, overall, you need that some immortal cards holds their value, not only for the veterans, but also to stabilize the whole economic system of the game: this also applies to standard and PvE. Expensive cards are in some way a thermometer of the game's health.

      I think we have a disagreement on what it means for a TCG to hold the value of our collections. For me, it's not only about a selfish desire to fill my pockets (my collection is ok, but nothing impressive and I actually don't have a lot of the expensive old cards). I see it as a part of the whole. That's why I agree with Schild for example when he says that EDH (or any format like that) will help to the economy. The future of Hex in a way relies on it's economic system, so yes, it should be properly managed.
      Twitter: @Plotynus
    • Eraia wrote:

      The argument for me isn't about value, but rather about enjoyability. Having entire sets of cards completely inaccessible save at the whims of veterans may be daunting for new players who want to get into PvE(or immortal) for example.
      Sure it helps value long-term, but is that all that matters?
      I'd argue against this. When I started playing with set 3 I only rarely joined constructed evnts because those set 1+2 cards were expensive as hell (looking at you Vampire King and Angel of Dawn) and only avaible via AH or cracking packs manually (which I did...). Not having to catch up on the complete card pool of HEX is actually a good thing for newer players. Plus it greatly reduces the complexity by not having to know all cards from previous sets. This will become even more impactful with every new set release. Imagine joining Hex in like 3 years. So much stuff to catch up just to get into constructed. And I am not even starting on how much you would have to keep in mind when playing around various cards.
    • Insanctus wrote:

      I'd argue against this. When I started playing with set 3 I only rarely joined constructed evnts because those set 1+2 cards were expensive as hell (looking at you Vampire King and Angel of Dawn) and only avaible via AH or cracking packs manually (which I did...). Not having to catch up on the complete card pool of HEX is actually a good thing for newer players. Plus it greatly reduces the complexity by not having to know all cards from previous sets. This will become even more impactful with every new set release. Imagine joining Hex in like 3 years. So much stuff to catch up just to get into constructed. And I am not even starting on how much you would have to keep in mind when playing around various cards.
      Yes, but when they see a cool card and find out 'oh, that card only existed when there were 1/100 the players we have now, so nobody ever sells them anymore so even if I have money I can't get them'.............. (assuming the playerbase grows - which we all hope)
      Gamer. Streamer. Photographer. Writer. Anime Lover. Possessor of Stuffed Animals.

      Also... I'm terrible at this game.
    • Eraia wrote:

      Insanctus wrote:

      I'd argue against this. When I started playing with set 3 I only rarely joined constructed evnts because those set 1+2 cards were expensive as hell (looking at you Vampire King and Angel of Dawn) and only avaible via AH or cracking packs manually (which I did...). Not having to catch up on the complete card pool of HEX is actually a good thing for newer players. Plus it greatly reduces the complexity by not having to know all cards from previous sets. This will become even more impactful with every new set release. Imagine joining Hex in like 3 years. So much stuff to catch up just to get into constructed. And I am not even starting on how much you would have to keep in mind when playing around various cards.
      Yes, but when they see a cool card and find out 'oh, that card only existed when there were 1/100 the players we have now, so nobody ever sells them anymore so even if I have money I can't get them'.............. (assuming the playerbase grows - which we all hope)
      That is assuming nobody sell them at all. If we look at MtG, new players get into their "immortal"(not sure if it's the right name there and too lazy to check) if they are willing to pay the money because people sell those 20 years old cards. I have seen players sell all sort of kickstarter cards now. I also have a friend who have bought a full collection of KS cards because he is a collector and isn't a KS. Rarity only affects the value of those cards, if we have 1:100 card to player ratio, those cards would just increased in value, which would also incentivize veterans to sell them.