Draft prizes and people who drop

    • Draft prizes and people who drop

      It seems that dropping from drafts when you lose a game has become common practice among at least some of the people who draft frequently.
      Yasi* posted a bunch of results to show his winrate for Evo: i was confused that these only went up to 3 but he hadn't even felt it necessary to mention that he routinely drops at 3 wins (and several others also seemed to take this for granted).


      I don't know if the stats are available from the data HXE give us but I suspect this is significantly increasing the difficulty and decreasing the rewards from playing drafts -a double whammy** for people who aren't playing limited primarily for ladder position or the draft-picking portion, and an extra hit for more casual players who like to play their pools out and have to wait longer to often face decks with better records (as it's predominantly the other weak decks that have dropped)




      Please could HXE check how much this is happening for Draft and Evo? (and ideally let me know)


      * I think -sorry if I'm misremembering who it was
      ** maybe nearer 3/2 whammies since the extra difficulty is sorta-kinda related to lowering the payouts.
    • Slight correction -apparently if you lose the first match but want to keep playing you don't get to have a harder match just to sit forever.

      UPDATE: just over an hour in queue ..and it was against a deck that hadn't played yet.


      Also to clarify: I'm not really complaining about player behaviour since people are entitled to play how they like and certainly shouldn't be obliged to spend significant time on parts of the game they don't enjoy. I would like a system that encourages (or at instigates) such behaviour to compensate for it if it's happening at a significant level (which I think it is).

      The post was edited 3 times, last by Timlagor ().

    • Timlagor wrote:

      Slight correction -apparently if you lose the first match but want to keep playing you don't get to have a harder match just to sit forever.

      UPDATE: just over an hour in queue ..and it was against a deck that hadn't played yet.


      Also to clarify: I'm not really complaining about player behaviour since people are entitled to play how they like and certainly shouldn't be obliged to spend significant time on parts of the game they don't enjoy. I would like a system that encourages (or at instigates) such behaviour to compensate for it if it's happening at a significant level (which I think it is).

      You do realize that its the day before set 6... no one wants to draft... tomorrow is another day :)
    • I will routinely drop if i lose the 1st match in draft because the risk of losing the 3rd match annoys me more than I want the payout (and if the deck has already lost I am less inclined to want to play it) for me the best solution is making draft gauntlet single elim with either an 8-4 or the old 5-3-2-2 payouts but apparently people don't want that.

      The reality is if you want it to be swiss payouts need to be where they are and that means some people are gonna drop and not play. Some rare drafters are always gonna drop sometimes too.

      I usually play out my evo's though since im doing those for ranking rather than prizes and games a game there.
    • EDIT: Apologies if this seems like a rehash of the original post but my point doesn't seem to have been understood* so I'm trying to communicate it more clearly and in more detail. It's also possible I'm projecting opinions expressed elsewhere by other people onto this respondent.

      MaliciousDemise wrote:

      I will routinely drop if i lose the 1st match in draft because the risk of losing the 3rd match annoys me more than I want the payout (and if the deck has already lost I am less inclined to want to play it) for me the best solution is making draft gauntlet single elim with either an 8-4 or the old 5-3-2-2 payouts but apparently people don't want that.
      I understand that this is why people drop and sympathise with your desire to do so. The problem is that this has consequences for all the people who don't get to play your weak deck.
      The payouts do not therefore need to be as they are*** since you (and others who drop) are not collecting your prizes and are further depriving other people of prizes they could have won against your deck. There seems to be an unwillingness among winning players to acknowledge that dropping from tournaments costs other people packs and not just the potential wins of the person dropping (this happened in Swiss draft when it was around too) because now they can't get the wins they would have got against you(r weak deck).
      The prize structure could be more generous to effectively redistribute these lost prizes.

      I acknowledge that I am speculating from very limited data here but there definitely are people who drop their weak pools and the ones I've heard it from are among the heaviest players so they will have a disproportionate impact even if they are in the minority. It's still possible that the actual impact is quite small and what I've seen is more due to the absence of 'cutting' during card picking but the effect I'm concerned about is the necessary consequence of the behaviour described: the only question is the degree to which it is happening.


      Alternatively we could just accept that the payout for Draft isn't going to be 3/2 packs per entry*** any more: I suspect it's nearer 1pack/entry with the vast bulk going to the very best players since getting 2 wins is almost certainly considerably harder now than first win in competitive draft was before -even those strong pools played by strong players are going to meet each other and be picking up the 2 packs as often as the hexapacks leaving very little for anyone else (where previously if 5 fairly weak players were in a draft at least one was guaranteed some packs).


      Personally I think it's important that prizes sometimes go to the weaker players. Being cut-throat about it is all very well but even from a purely selfish winning perspective you're much better off letting bad player have enough to keep them coming back.
      ...if you think it's a point of principle that only the best should win then I consider my point of principle that everyone should enjoy themselves to be much more important.


      I think it is clear that single elimination is only desired by a small minority in this format -most people seem to considerably prefer double elimination for big tournaments too [that's more anecdote than data though].


      In case anyone cares, I'm probably a Tier 2 or 3 limited player: I was not good enough to go infinite in packs from competitive draft but could comfortably sell enough cards from draft to get there and still build my collection (I also play a good deal of PVE and get stuff from both ladders). I haven't played enough draft gauntlet to really know where I stand but it feels like I'm close to the line -probably slightly profitable but only by counting the occasional Mightsinger and I could well be overestimating (obviously it depends on card prices which seem low at present).


      *** There is in fact nothing magical about this payout rate at all: prizes just need to be good enough to keep people playing and low enough not to flood the market (definitely less than 3.5packs per entry)

      The post was edited 1 time, last by Timlagor ().

    • MaliciousDemise wrote:

      for me the best solution is making draft gauntlet single elim with either an 8-4 or the old 5-3-2-2 payouts but apparently people don't want that.

      I think that would be up for debate, but no input was gathered before the change happened. The old 5-3-2-2 was perfect, even changing this current format to 5-3-2-2 with single elimination would be better. Changing to a more casual format with a more competitive payout makes no sense and I find it hard to believe that they weren't aware that payout packs would fall through the cracks and the payout actually isn't accurate everytime.
    • Double elimination in a 3 round draft and double elimination in a major tournament aren't really equivalent. You can still get max prizes in a major tournament after 1 loss which isn't possible in a 3 round draft. Having to go 8-0 has a higher degree of luck than having to go 7-1 since you can't afford even the slightest misstep thats why larger tournaments are generally swiss rather than single elimination.

      My statement that people don't want it is based on people telling me they don't want it to be single elim, I am not saying that this represents a majority or anything just that there are people who don't want the swiss aspect to change.
    • Sorry to be picky but this isn't "Swiss". Double elimination or 2 lives or best of 3 but not Swiss (and it's a bit confusing when you call it that).


      Since writing about this I've come to realise that Draft should be basically dead at this point.
      You have to be n the top ?~15%? of active drafters to get decent value and since that's active drafters it should immeiddately iterate to people only playing if:
      1) they are one of the best couple of drafters
      2) they have a free ticket anyway
      3) they really love the picking process and first game (at least as much as they love the 400p it's likely to cost them net)

      Also there is something magic about the 3/2pack per entry rewards: it's approximately what you can expect from Sealed.

      I won't be drafting except with Tickets under the current format, please come join me in Sealed.
    • You mean the rare card for one win? That is cool and all but people want packs. It is something though. If it can proc a legendary then great. If just a rare then meh, it won't change my stance.

      You are losing chance of a legendary, chance of a primal, chest and part currency to draft again.
    • They accidentally showed a screenshot in an article that revealed you're going to start getting a random rare card for 1 win in draft, though the feature itself was not ready to be released or announced.
      --ossuary

      "Love all, trust a few, do wrong to none."
      - Shakespeare, All's Well That Ends Well

    • Gregangel wrote:

      too bad for them

      But yes the card should be a legendary 1 time out of 9
      The whole point is that it's not just "too bad for them": they don't care. And when people drop they are generally dropping with weak decks.


      Drops hurt the rewards of the people who do keep playing because they are consequently not giving up the wins they otherwise would to other players. One random rare/legendary would make some difference but since I already don't know how prevalent the dropping is and also don't know how much difference the extra reward would make to that there's no way of telling if it would be enough (although the rare slot is most of the value of an opened pack, an unopened pack is considerably more valuable -especially when you factor in the inconvenience of selling)