Changing HEX from a pure TCG to a Hybrid TCG/CCG

    • Changing HEX from a pure TCG to a Hybrid TCG/CCG

      After some discussion on the Cornerstone Discord Channel and encouraged by CoachFliperon figured I'd throw this idea to the wolves (Literally in this case I imagine).

      First and foremost I do not like CCGs. I do not like Hearthstone, Eternal, Gwent, or any of the other random CCGs we got now.

      With that said, I feel HEX could do something really cool. One of the draws to a game is daily rewards and challenge rewards, (FYI I am account level 100 and have zero reason to play daily) I'm not a big fan of have to login each day, but more of the 30ish days and reset ones. Unfortunately HEX really can't implement this stuff as for a TCG I expect our stuff to have value.

      So how do we change this? Make a CCG subset. I sort of got the idea off of Time Spiral and the subset idea from the time-shifted stuff. Every other set is released with a CCG only subset consisting of roughly 100 cards. These cards can be used in PVP and rotate like normal sets. A disenchant system can then be introduced to make the cards you don't get and since the premise is mainly a TCG, the ratio should keep close to a 2 for 1 of each rarity. I'd even allow the disenchanting of non-CCG cards to be turned into the material to make the TCG cards.


      **Note: I'm using the common terms Disenchant and Dust when talking about destroying a card for resource to craft another one.

      So how would you get cards? 3 ways.
      • Opening Packs give 1 CCG subset card
      • Daily Login Rewards and Challenges give random cards or enchanting dust
      • craft them via the dust
      What about limited?
      • Limited would provide you with an automatic card in your pool when you open a pack. (I like the idea, but it could be scrapped
      What about balance and maybe a card here is broken?
      • Treat CCG cards like PVE cards. They can be modified since they have no value.
      I want to get them all right away?
      • Disenchant your TCG cards and get the crafting dust to make them
      What about Equipment for the cards?
      • Equipment will be account bound out of the chest and be the same for enchant or disenchant.


      Drawbacks
      • Different Model than originally planned and even more hybrid
      • Some players may not like it
      • Having to get cards to play that can't be traded for in the constructed format
      • If TCG cards can be disenchanted makes them easily obtainable by players, with older accounts having instant access due to their massive collection
      Advantages
      • Allows daily login rewards and challenges
      • Increase value/scarcity of older common/uncommon/junk rares because they can be used to make the CCG subset cards if they can be disenchanted for dust
      • Increase sales of cards due to the CCG part
      • Provides another avenue for players and may appeal to a different group of players.


      Thoughts ideas?
    • The goal of this is to do what ultimately?

      Allow for daily login rewards?

      Cause the way you make it sound is "I hate feature ____, but I want there to be some sort of login rewards. Let's implement login rewards by having feature ____."

      -------------------

      The idea of having login rewards or incentives to continue playing the game on a more regular basis has some merit, but I don't think this is the way to go about implementing them. You're suggesting changing Hex's core business model into an amalgamation of two existing models. There are some things that Hex has established as parts of its identity and its economy is one of those.

      With some features there's room for change, but this is a BIG change.0

      -------------------

      My input would be if you were trying to slot in some sort of recurring reward for participating in the game then focusing on how that system works and how it is engaging is the way to go.
    • Actually I was thinking about this more, and I think there's an even larger issue here. It has to do with the core business model...

      ***Disclaimer, I get that the 100 cards part is just an arbitrary number but my following point still stands***

      Every other set gets 100 card CCG added on to it. Where do those cards fit in? Are they in ADDITION TO or are they IN PLACE OF the existing cards in a set? To clarify, are you effectively adding 100 pvp cards to every pvp set?

      You're increasing the design load but you're also increasing difficulty for the set to have stand out cards, which brings me to... Are the 100 cards all a singular rarity or are some of those 100 cards of a variety of rarities? If they are a variety of rarities then we are talking about you needing to open dramatically more than 400 packs to complete a set just from cracking packs. Someone else can run the numbers but even if they are all the same rarity I would imagine that the number would be nearing 1000 packs? Sure you can craft cards with dust like you mentioned but that's surely not going to be at a 1:1 rate is it?

      Okay but then it is only every other set, so the even number sets still have cards from the first CCG collection? You stretch out the number of packs you need to open to compete across two sets instead this way and it is more palatable but it is still a problem. You want a specific card for the tournament that is the week after a new rotation? Well you better be ready to crack some packs cause you won't be able to find those cards on the auction house.

      The list goes on, but the idea seems DOA. It seems like it takes more away from the game than it adds to it and the potential for it being something that ruins the game beyond repair is extremely high. If you owned a publishing house and thought this was a great idea that had legs to it, you'd be better off creating a brand new game from scratch to make it work because the risk of destroying an existing IP is enormous.

      It is entirely possible that with some intricate math a system like this actually works. It is a complex solution to a relatively simple problem, in design you typically want to strive for the reverse of that being true.
    • Sum to what @Funktion say, wouldn't be better to have a "pure" crafting system that fits on MMO words? Loot you get fighting specific monster and you need X+Y+Z to craft that PvE card? This gives a reason to "grind" different places than GMG, create new items giving value to them, and so on... at the end, a better PvE experience.
    • There are account bound cards currently implemented in Hex (starter cards, collections for game reviewers/streamers, etc.), I was always wondering why Hex is not awarding more of those to make the game more appealing to casual audience. When I was thinking about it, I have only found one reasonable explanation and that is confusion. You would either never know how many cards you actually own and can trade or you would need implement whole new system for labeling account bound cards... Confusion!

      Given impending move into consoles and mobile, confused players are probably last thing HXE wants, but it would sure make the game even more appealing for casual players (hell you could even reward random PvP soulbound legendary after finishing campaign and it would not break the economy, etc.).
    • Funktion wrote:

      Actually I was thinking about this more, and I think there's an even larger issue here. It has to do with the core business model...

      ***Disclaimer, I get that the 100 cards part is just an arbitrary number but my following point still stands***

      Every other set gets 100 card CCG added on to it. Where do those cards fit in? Are they in ADDITION TO or are they IN PLACE OF the existing cards in a set? To clarify, are you effectively adding 100 pvp cards to every pvp set?

      You're increasing the design load but you're also increasing difficulty for the set to have stand out cards, which brings me to... Are the 100 cards all a singular rarity or are some of those 100 cards of a variety of rarities? If they are a variety of rarities then we are talking about you needing to open dramatically more than 400 packs to complete a set just from cracking packs. Someone else can run the numbers but even if they are all the same rarity I would imagine that the number would be nearing 1000 packs? Sure you can craft cards with dust like you mentioned but that's surely not going to be at a 1:1 rate is it?

      Okay but then it is only every other set, so the even number sets still have cards from the first CCG collection? You stretch out the number of packs you need to open to compete across two sets instead this way and it is more palatable but it is still a problem. You want a specific card for the tournament that is the week after a new rotation? Well you better be ready to crack some packs cause you won't be able to find those cards on the auction house.

      The list goes on, but the idea seems DOA. It seems like it takes more away from the game than it adds to it and the potential for it being something that ruins the game beyond repair is extremely high. If you owned a publishing house and thought this was a great idea that had legs to it, you'd be better off creating a brand new game from scratch to make it work because the risk of destroying an existing IP is enormous.

      It is entirely possible that with some intricate math a system like this actually works. It is a complex solution to a relatively simple problem, in design you typically want to strive for the reverse of that being true.
      The idea would be the daily login and challenges would help you create the cards and if you can disenchant the TCG cards for sets, crafting the new cards wouldn't be a problem for the majority of the population. It gives another outlet.

      You are right it is a complex addition and would probably take to much time to ever implement (and I don't believe it would be implemented.

      Canter wrote:

      Sum to what @Funktion say, wouldn't be better to have a "pure" crafting system that fits on MMO words? Loot you get fighting specific monster and you need X+Y+Z to craft that PvE card? This gives a reason to "grind" different places than GMG, create new items giving value to them, and so on... at the end, a better PvE experience.
      We were supposed to have some sort of crafting system at some point.

      Sethanon wrote:




      Given impending move into consoles and mobile, confused players are probably last thing HXE wants, but it would sure make the game even more appealing for casual players (hell you could even reward random PvP soulbound legendary after finishing campaign and it would not break the economy, etc.).
      Giving soulbound rares/legendary cards that have real value will eventually break the economy by lessening the value of the cards currently in circulation.

      Transience wrote:

      Swigmonkey wrote:

      Thoughts ideas?
      Why would you want to do this? What's the advantage?
      I prefer my cards having value after I've added them to my collection.

      We already have untradeable sleeves and battleboards, that seems enough of a money pit.
      I do too. That is why I stated it has to be additional as I don't want our collections to lose value as that would be a nail in the coffin if our collections went down the tube.


      Like I said, it was an idea I was throwing to the wolves. That is all we can do. Yes I don't like the idea of forcing people to login, but it also is an appeal for many people and some games I enjoy it more than others.

      @Funktion I would say in addition to the normal set, but I imagine in practice it would short every other set by about 50 cards if they went with 100 cards. There are so many different levels that it would have to be fleshed out properly and implemented to be good. Could it work, yes and that is why I just dropped it here for the wolves to chew on for a minute.
    • If I was forced to log in every day and do something (crafting?) to make sure I get cards that I 'need' to play constructed I'd probably quit playing. I understand there's a market for that but I don't think the average constructed player wants to perform tasks instead of just buying their cards in a game like HEX.

      Crafting seems fine to make AA cards or PVE cards by destroying cheap commons and equipment of which you have far too many but it shouldn't become an obstruction to actually play the game.
      "Ignorant beliefs are stains upon the mind."
    • You can sell maybe 15 to 20% of your collection, everything else is dust collectors. So, there must be an option to break equipment and cards into corresponding stardust.
      As for crafting, I don't think crafting PvP cards is a good idea. We all paid for our rares and legendaries and we don't want them to get cheaper.
      Cosmetics is the opposite. Being able to craft a sleeve, battleboard (not elite ones won at a tournament but from the list of craftable), or turning a card into AA is the way to go, in my opinion. Deck/board customization is really fun and reducing amount of commons/uncommons/equipment by millions will also be good for our collections and server databases performance wise.
    • Swigmonkey wrote:

      With that said, I feel HEX could do something really cool. One of the draws to a game is daily rewards and challenge rewards, (FYI I am account level 100 and have zero reason to play daily) I'm not a big fan of have to login each day, but more of the 30ish days and reset ones. Unfortunately HEX really can't implement this stuff as for a TCG I expect our stuff to have value.
      You did put some thoughts into your idea but I'm not quite sure what you want to achieve or what problem/need you want to solve with the suggestion. Feels like you want to address replay-ability or engagement? Maybe new player progression? Hard to judge the idea for what it wants to accomplish without a bit more context.

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    • Swigmonkey wrote:

      have zero reason to play daily
      So you don't really like playing the game? I think that's the issue here. If you don't enjoy playing, I dunno what amount of carrots on sticks would make you play, for how long, and how much good would that be for the game.

      And that's completely disregarding your suggestions, be they good or bad. I'm just commenting on the attitude.