Stone me if you want, but - PvE???

    • New

      pjvedder wrote:

      Yeah, it was a good comparison. I was just trying to make a joke... apparently it fell flat.
      Maybe not, maybe I'm just too tired right now to recognize your humour. That's entirely possible. lol


      Blackwood wrote:

      If absolutely nothing else, you ought to appreciate that there's going to be a heck of a lot more scenarios with siege that don't 'demand' the same 'terrormill or go home' mindset as FRA 2.0.
      To a degree, yes. But the cost portion is likely to ensure most defender decks are either tuned to the same degree(just not terrormill because we won't have phenteo's gift) or very quickly taken 'off the market' since they're only 'completable once'... people with top tier decks will likely snipe the less competitive defenders quick, while the really difficult ones are the only ones to have a longer lasting lifespan.

      Actually, allowing each deck to have multiple bounties on it, but a 'one completion per person' mindset might help with that component... then a person can put 5000 up, and know that at least 5 people will 'benefit' from it.
      Gamer. Streamer. Photographer. Writer. Anime Lover. Possessor of Stuffed Animals.

      Also... I'm terrible at this game.

      The post was edited 1 time, last by Eraia ().

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      Firellius wrote:

      It's one player's deckbuilding being tested against another player's deckbuilding. One player gets three decks, the other gets the advantage of not being AI.
      Everything is by PvP rules.

      This thing is about 95% PvP. In terms of how it matches against the campaign and all of the content in there, which is the bulk of PvE, well...

      It doesn't. Not one bit. PvE cards are banned, attackers probably can't use equipment, mercs are disabled for both sides, player characters are disabled for both sides... This is really just more PvP which, honestly, isn't even being presented as PvE so there really is no reason that this is being seen as such.

      Keeps is PvP content. Period.

      Eraia wrote:

      Sukebe wrote:

      New pve content is announced and what happens? most of the players in this thread just complain about it before they even play it
      I'm sorry, but if I'm not allowed to use PvE cards when playing a mode, it's not the PvE I want. This is simple pure fact. Most of the fun I get from PvE come from PvE specific cards. The fun ones like the 2/4 flier who gives cards in your deck 'copy this' or the Aryndel Warden or the equipment that makes the verdict dude have lifedrain.
      What's worse, is this is MORE content not using our pve champs or mercs, which are - to me - the most interesting part of the game's PvE.

      So yes, I can say with 100% confident that it's not interesting for me just based off of the FACTS about the game mode.

      Wait, now I'm confused. I knew we wouldn't be able to use mercenaries or characters in Siege, but I thought we'd get access to ALL of our PvE cards and equipment. From some of the posts in this thread, it appears that is NOT true?

      ... OR are you guys just saying that the challenger has to use a totally PvP legal deck? Because I mean, the defender gets to use everything, right?
    • New

      I think everyone should cool down a little, WE asked for PvE updates, we asked for DYNAMIC content.
      Technically we got it. Its not an AZ but its part of AZ3 that we get to test now.
      Pretty sure its gonna be the meaning that you can do it with your character in the future and that you have mercenaries defending it, but as off now it needs testing, it needs to evolve AND they need to see what they can do with it, which part people like and which parts people dont like.
      WE have been asking for money sinks, to monetize PvE some more, so please dont be mad if they do that. You even have to option to play for very little gold.

      For now lets wait and see, they are late with PvE, way to late but this siege system gives me a spark of hope, now take it and test it, try to enjoy it and lets see how far it can take us.
      Even though they let us down by taking so long lets atleast support them if they DO release some new features for testing and for GIVING us finally some PvE info and info about what they are working on.
    • New

      Sapphire wrote:

      Wait, now I'm confused. I knew we wouldn't be able to use mercenaries or characters in Siege, but I thought we'd get access to ALL of our PvE cards and equipment. From some of the posts in this thread, it appears that is NOT true?

      ... OR are you guys just saying that the challenger has to use a totally PvP legal deck? Because I mean, the defender gets to use everything, right?
      At launch, attacker is standard legal only, defender is all PVP + PVE cards & equipment they have in their collection, along with any champion or gem from all of Hex's library.

      Stated objective plan is to advance to attackers getting to use PVE cards & equipment with restricted / ban lists & defenders getting to also use mercenaries. It's not beyond the realm of belief that the longer term goal is eventually allowing more than that, but that's the launch + 'short' term goal.
    • New

      Blackwood wrote:

      Sapphire wrote:

      Wait, now I'm confused. I knew we wouldn't be able to use mercenaries or characters in Siege, but I thought we'd get access to ALL of our PvE cards and equipment. From some of the posts in this thread, it appears that is NOT true?

      ... OR are you guys just saying that the challenger has to use a totally PvP legal deck? Because I mean, the defender gets to use everything, right?
      At launch, attacker is standard legal only, defender is all PVP + PVE cards & equipment they have in their collection, along with any champion or gem from all of Hex's library.
      Stated objective plan is to advance to attackers getting to use PVE cards & equipment with restricted / ban lists & defenders getting to also use mercenaries. It's not beyond the realm of belief that the longer term goal is eventually allowing more than that, but that's the launch + 'short' term goal.
      Okay that's what I thought, and that makes sense. Thanks for the clarification!
    • New

      Frederik wrote:

      I think everyone should cool down a little, WE asked for PvE updates, we asked for DYNAMIC content.
      Technically we got it. Its not an AZ but its part of AZ3 that we get to test now.
      Pretty sure its gonna be the meaning that you can do it with your character in the future and that you have mercenaries defending it, but as off now it needs testing, it needs to evolve AND they need to see what they can do with it, which part people like and which parts people dont like.
      WE have been asking for money sinks, to monetize PvE some more, so please dont be mad if they do that. You even have to option to play for very little gold.

      For now lets wait and see, they are late with PvE, way to late but this siege system gives me a spark of hope, now take it and test it, try to enjoy it and lets see how far it can take us.
      Even though they let us down by taking so long lets atleast support them if they DO release some new features for testing and for GIVING us finally some PvE info and info about what they are working on.
      I will say regardless of whether I am PERSONALLY interested in this content, this part I am VERY glad of. It is great that they're talking with us and making new content.

      But... I also want to make sure peoples' expectations are realistic.

      This is going to be competitive content. It's going to be a step up from arena 2.0 in terms of exclusivity(meaning more exclusive, to be clear), and it's going to be primarily geared towards people with very large collections. This is not a casual feature.

      It's great for what it is, and I expect a significant number of PVE players will love it. But, it also does virtually nothing(save affect the cost of some pve cards possibly) for an equally significant number of PVE players.

      The most important part of Siege is that Hex is showing a commitment to PvE... and TALKING about pve with us. It will also hopefully be popular enough that it'll give Hex more things to talk about long-term.
      Gamer. Streamer. Photographer. Writer. Anime Lover. Possessor of Stuffed Animals.

      Also... I'm terrible at this game.

      The post was edited 1 time, last by Eraia ().

    • New

      @Eraia will you be able to resist the temptation when I put up an exclusive bird-themed aviary gauntlet? I'm not sure how best it'd be to coordinate it, but I'll try to ensure you can take a crack at it for whatever the minimum gold is and mail out some bird themed bonus prizes.

      That's honestly where at least personally I aim to go with this, if tenable--I'll see if I can't have recurring theme keeps with a thread for folks to follow.
    • New

      Blackwood wrote:

      @Eraia will you be able to resist the temptation when I put up an exclusive bird-themed aviary gauntlet? I'm not sure how best it'd be to coordinate it, but I'll try to ensure you can take a crack at it for whatever the minimum gold is and mail out some bird themed bonus prizes.

      That's honestly where at least personally I aim to go with this, if tenable--I'll see if I can't have recurring theme keeps with a thread for folks to follow.
      Ya know, if you can manage to pull together 3 full bird-themed decks, I don't think I'd be able to resist that. If it wasn't already claimed before I ever knew about it ;)
      Gamer. Streamer. Photographer. Writer. Anime Lover. Possessor of Stuffed Animals.

      Also... I'm terrible at this game.
    • New

      Sapphire wrote:

      Wait, now I'm confused. I knew we wouldn't be able to use mercenaries or characters in Siege, but I thought we'd get access to ALL of our PvE cards and equipment. From some of the posts in this thread, it appears that is NOT true?

      ... OR are you guys just saying that the challenger has to use a totally PvP legal deck? Because I mean, the defender gets to use everything, right?
      I think this might have been answered, but I've seen it repeatedly asked. Of note I've seen people asking why attackers can only use standard PVP cards as if that being the case is some conspiracy to FORCE people to buy packs / singles.

      First off, nobody is being forced to do anything, but more importantly to actually answer Sapphire's question.

      TLDR; The AI is as dumb as bricks...

      ...that is why people can't use all of their toys. @HEXCoryJones of all people doesn't like taking people's toys away from them. He wants you to play with all of your toys. The designers working on hex though, they realize that there is a absurd power paradigm that greatly favors the players when it comes to PVE content. A portion of this is because the designed the AI specifically to play at a lower skill level than it *could*, players already complain about losing to the piranhas, imagine the complaints if the AI was smashing you on a much more regular basis. Emphasis on it being a portion, some of it is that an AI just isn't gonna be as good as a real person when it comes to some things like this (well maybe in extreme machine learning cases). To that end it seems like the devs are hinting that over time they will probably loosen restrictions on attackers and / or tighten them on defenders. As the ai improves and as they are able to figure what cards are problematic they will be able to make adjustments.

      In other news General's Tent in ~90 minutes and I am stoked for today!
    • New

      Firellius wrote:

      SaintVicarious wrote:

      Anyone read the new article on PC Gamer? Has an interesting line in the opening paragraph (Emphasis mine):

      Let's face it, when it comes to collectible card games, most of us can only take so much ladder before generating enough salt to season every McMeal in America. Having some sort of PvE option helps, because losing to the computer is never quite as frustrating, and playing without the pressure of a turn timer, or some asshole emoting at you, makes for a refreshing break. Hearthstone's wildly popular Dungeon Run mode, and to a lesser degree the lethal puzzles in The Elder Scrolls: Legends, prove that PvE is increasingly core to what makes a good digital CCG.
      Also note that in an article referencing PvE content in CCGs, Hex, which specifically rose up for its PvE content in CCGs, is not mentioned.
      Eh, not that peculiar. HEX is a small game compared to those two, and its PvE side hasn't been relevant in two years now. Hearthstone is the "big boy" on the block, and gets mentioned on every card game's article. And Legends is the current "next most popular" option (Which also has a fairly thorough singleplayer).

      HEX is approximately 1/50th the size as Elder Scroll: Legends, and hasn't had a major PvE release since the latter has existed as a game.
      Never shift in to reverse without a backup plan.
    • New

      Funktion wrote:

      I think this might have been answered, but I've seen it repeatedly asked. Of note I've seen people asking why attackers can only use standard PVP cards as if that being the case is some conspiracy to FORCE people to buy packs / singles.
      First off, nobody is being forced to do anything...
      You are if you want to play as an attacker. The attacker must use a Standard legal deck. Only cards from the most recent sets are Standard legal. To say no one is being forced to do anything is patently false on the surface.
    • New

      SaintVicarious wrote:

      Firellius wrote:

      SaintVicarious wrote:

      Anyone read the new article on PC Gamer? Has an interesting line in the opening paragraph (Emphasis mine):

      Let's face it, when it comes to collectible card games, most of us can only take so much ladder before generating enough salt to season every McMeal in America. Having some sort of PvE option helps, because losing to the computer is never quite as frustrating, and playing without the pressure of a turn timer, or some asshole emoting at you, makes for a refreshing break. Hearthstone's wildly popular Dungeon Run mode, and to a lesser degree the lethal puzzles in The Elder Scrolls: Legends, prove that PvE is increasingly core to what makes a good digital CCG.
      Also note that in an article referencing PvE content in CCGs, Hex, which specifically rose up for its PvE content in CCGs, is not mentioned.
      Eh, not that peculiar. HEX is a small game compared to those two, and its PvE side hasn't been relevant in two years now. Hearthstone is the "big boy" on the block, and gets mentioned on every card game's article. And Legends is the current "next most popular" option (Which also has a fairly thorough singleplayer).
      HEX is approximately 1/50th the size as Elder Scroll: Legends, and hasn't had a major PvE release since the latter has existed as a game.
      Have anyone other than me tried this game ?? This game exist in a paper version for some years now.
      Imo the game is a single player game so like HEX without PvP, FRA or AH.

      First 3 AZ dungoen comes with starter box. New expansions exery month that cost $30-50 and add 1-2 new dungeons.
      Cost of all expantion in paper version is $1000. So if you want to be a top player in this game be prepaired to spend $1000.
      Like dungeons in HEX the get boring after a day or so - same with lotr after a day or two you need to spend another $30-50 to get a few more days of fun...
      This go on forever. No need to hype this game - it seems nowhere as good as HEX.

      Also nobody other that HEX players know HEX.
      It seems Cory thinks that if he makes HEX good enogth word about HEX will spred and players will come without any PR.
      Everyone knows Coca Cola but still they use a lot of money on PR. Why? Because it boost there sells.

      The post was edited 6 times, last by Opalia ().

    • New

      Funktion wrote:

      TLDR; The AI is as dumb as bricks...
      This should not be the reason, however, because HXE is intentionally holding the AI back, as per their claims. They could crank up the difficulty, if they wanted to allow for PvE on the attacker's side. They don't because they don't want to, and the only 2 reasons are (1) PS4 and (2) time (it'll take a lot of time for them to create a watchlist/banlist of cards & equipment).
    • New

      Funktion wrote:

      Sapphire wrote:

      Wait, now I'm confused. I knew we wouldn't be able to use mercenaries or characters in Siege, but I thought we'd get access to ALL of our PvE cards and equipment. From some of the posts in this thread, it appears that is NOT true?

      ... OR are you guys just saying that the challenger has to use a totally PvP legal deck? Because I mean, the defender gets to use everything, right?
      I think this might have been answered, but I've seen it repeatedly asked. Of note I've seen people asking why attackers can only use standard PVP cards as if that being the case is some conspiracy to FORCE people to buy packs / singles.
      First off, nobody is being forced to do anything, but more importantly to actually answer Sapphire's question.

      TLDR; The AI is as dumb as bricks...

      ...that is why people can't use all of their toys. @HEXCoryJones of all people doesn't like taking people's toys away from them. He wants you to play with all of your toys. The designers working on hex though, they realize that there is a absurd power paradigm that greatly favors the players when it comes to PVE content. A portion of this is because the designed the AI specifically to play at a lower skill level than it *could*, players already complain about losing to the piranhas, imagine the complaints if the AI was smashing you on a much more regular basis. Emphasis on it being a portion, some of it is that an AI just isn't gonna be as good as a real person when it comes to some things like this (well maybe in extreme machine learning cases). To that end it seems like the devs are hinting that over time they will probably loosen restrictions on attackers and / or tighten them on defenders. As the ai improves and as they are able to figure what cards are problematic they will be able to make adjustments.

      In other news General's Tent in ~90 minutes and I am stoked for today!

      I totally understand that the AI needs all the help it can get against a human opponent. I absolutely agree with their decision to start out that way. I was just confused because people kept saying that Siege "isn't PvE, you can't use PvE cards" and I was like, "I thought you could!" and then I realized they meant "I, as a challenger, don't get to use my PvE cards." But yeah, makes sense. Hopefully we get to use more later, but this is a smart first test.

      There are plenty of ways to easily make the AI harder. There are a lot of cases where the AI casts cards after combat, that would've been boosted had they been cast before combat. Very easy to flag those cards with a tag that the AI looks for in its decision when to cast a spell. Or have the AI stop using its Charge Powers when there's not a reason to (oh good job, you made me discard 2 of my 0 cards!). Or stop stunning its own troops (seriously, why does it do that?!). Or stop holding back when it has enough troops to kill me if it just swings out, even though it, too, will lose a lot of troops. (I have 4 blockers and 3 life, AI has like ten dudes and won't attack because my blockers are big.) SOOO many ways the AI could be made smarter, and therefore much harder.
    • New

      Draconix wrote:

      HEXCoryJones wrote:

      You should expect changes and additions in the future (like using your mercenaries to defend). We realized that a big portion of "Keeps" was built around a game play system that was untested... so lets test it!

      I hope you have fun with this, it was a small part of the MANY ideas I feel in love with when creating HEX, and I am very excited to finally play around with it.

      IT WILL NOT be perfect at the beginning... this will be a long process to making it great, but hopefully its an enjoyable process :)

      -cory
      Pineapple and mango salad coming soon Bob, shut up and have another appetizer and see if I invite you to my brunch again.
      "(like using your mercenaries to defend)"

      'Shut up, Bob! There's Mango and Pineapple in that salad! They're plastic and not for eating, but they are -exactly- what you asked for!'
    • New

      HEXCoryJones wrote:

      Vroengard wrote:

      YES, THIS IS EXACTLY AS I HAD THOUGHT IT WOULD BE, IT IS AMAZING, IT --


      One Standard legal deck.
      Thanks HXE. I had never experienced orgasm denial before. At least now I can say I've tried it and didn't like it.
      as much as I enjoy the graphic nature of this... we will be exploring this one step at a time, the gap between player ability and the AI ability is something we will have to work out... we need to stack the odds on the AI to give it a chance it will NEVER be as good as a human player (don't tell Chris I said that)
      With that said... the goal is to have full PVE for both attacker and defender... with the NOTE (all caps for added emphasis) there would be a large ban / restricted list for Siege mode of PVE cards on the attack side.

      as I said this is the first step, we will make it awesome with your help :)
      Put on your reading glasses bib5
    • New

      Ok so after a long busy weekend, I finally have some time to post.

      Before I say anything else, I want to say thank you to HexEnt for finally providing some information and even trusting us to essentially "beta test" a new feature in the game. To all of the people complaining about people discussing various aspects of this new feature, discussion and feedback are healthy and crucial when in what is essentially an early access model. For the people that are discussing the various aspects, please remember constructive criticism is the best form. I'm thrilled that not only do we get new content, but by the way it's being released, we essentially get to have a say in how it evolves! If we can keep the feedback productive and if HexEnt can continue to communicate with us, I think this could go a long ways towards rebuilding the trust and community of "PVE" players.

      Looking at other posters concerns, I can understand why some people have them. Speaking for myself, I think this new content will hit all of the buttons for me! I've always felt more like a hybrid PVP/PVE player in this game as I enjoy both kinds of content. I finally spent money on the game again this weekend (it's been a while), because I think this new mode has a TON of potential. What I'm saying is that the communication from HexEnt, the Vision of the new mode, and the excitement that I've felt in the community has convinced me to allow myself to be interested again. I hope that the communication and feedback continue.

      The things I'm most excited about:

      The Value of my Time - I love that I can jump in and build/tweak my defense decks at my leisure, whenever I have some time to spare. I love that I can attack when I have enough time to spare, and that the time requirement for an attack is not excessive (looking at you Clash/Bash).

      The Value of my Collection - I can't say enough how much this aspect has come to influence my Hex experience. I backed this game originally in the KS because I was excited about having my PVP but then being able to use my "leftovers" to make another separate meal. I like that I can now feel like whatever I collect in-game, I have a relevant place to use it. I'm thrilled that my acorns may now finally have value again!

      The Value to the Community - I understand that people have legitimate concerns about some aspects of this new system. Despite those concerns, I'm in the camp that this is absolutely a positive for not just "PVE" players, but Hex as a whole. I wonder how many "PVE" players who have reservations about playing against other people might just dip their toes in this content since you are playing against an AI. I think this might go a long way towards making the "PVP" side less "scary". What I mean by that, is somebody like my wife for example. She played a bit through the campaign and enjoyed it, but she adamantly refuses to play against other people. Her skill level and familiarity with these kinds of games makes her nervous to slow down other people's play and she doesn't want to interact with other people during a match. This would be great for her, she is still playing against other people in a sense, just without all the negatives that go along with it.

      In addition, I feel like this feature allows the community to become involved with the game at a much higher level again. Think of the possibilities of creating our own Siege leagues with friends/guildies! Think about the opportunities to create themed player made "dungeons" to tackle! Can this be used in upcoming holiday events from HexEnt themselves? Maybe make a Holiday Siege themed dungeon that they can seed multiple times in the que (or a special "limited time event" que for the Sieges themselves) where we can earn our new cards/rewards?

      The Value of Risk/Reward - I like that I have another avenue to passively generate rewards. I like that as an attacker, I can choose how much to risk depending on my mood. I like that as a defender, my rewards grow with my success. I think it's great that we have control over how "invested" in this system we want to become. And I love that we automatically open up our options just by playing other aspects of the game. I feel like time spent in any activity in Hex now has rewards that can bridge the gap between only "PVP or "PVE".

      The Value to HexEnt - I think that the framework of this new system is groundbreaking. When I look at the possibilties of how this can be iterated on, it's just amazing. This system can be tied into so many different parts of the game that it makes my head spin. I feel like it will go a long way towards relieving some of the development pressure HexEnt must currently be feeling. Players get new content, players build new content, and HexEnt still generates a profit through the gold/platnum sink built into the challenges. Literally everybody benefits.

      Some slight concerns:

      Balance - This is going to be tricky to balance. While self sorting through setting and risking bounties will mitigate this somewhat, I'm sure there are going to be some really difficult challenges on both sides. My concern is that if the experience isn't smooth in the beginning, the interest will drop until the innovation stagnates between unbeatable or non-challenging with no middle ground. If HexEnt (and the community to a lesser extent) can support the format properly this will be amazing for players of all skill levels and collection sizes. I just hope it doesn't devolve into a shark tank. There needs to be some mechanisms where we can evaluate a keep on more than just the number of wins and hoard. Maybe a ladder style system based on aggregate wins/losses? Maybe just a percentage of wins vs losses instead of a ladder? Going back to an earlier point, maybe an optional league system to help regulate the power levels or community agreed upon rule-sets?

      Activity Level - This ties in with balance but is separate. I think this format needs a healthy population of activity to participate. Too few and it adds to the chances of becoming a shark tank. Too many, and it could lead to a situation like the auction house where there are never ending pages of options. If we can't sort or browse effectively, it can become a pain and a hassle to find an "appropriate" Siege for us to challenge.

      All in all, I think this is going to be a huge success. I love the hybrid PVE/PVP nature of it, and it's almost exactly what I've been waiting on since KS. I think this will go a long way towards revitalizing the health of the game and generating cross interest (between PVE/PVP) within the playerbase. Any time you can give players more valid options on how to enjoy content (and specific to TCGs, their collections) is a win in my book.