FRA 2.0 Review - Further Reflections

    • NicoSharp wrote:

      Galliard wrote:

      Edit: Nevermind, no good would come from that post.

      There's not really any point arguing when people are seriously throwing out "Have you tried playing removal?", no matter how good the intentions are.
      Please tell me where the quote, "Have you tried playing removal?" comes from?Are you paraphrasing?
      Are you just looking for a fight?

      This has been a habit for far too long, to not be addressed. This has happened quite a bit, with me in particular. I'm happy to settle this with you publicly or by PM. Because I don't get it? Let's stop jumping to conclusions through personal reasoning, without asking clarifying questions first. Less stress, and we will live longer :)

      How are examples of what it means to remove "synergy" from a deck, have anything to do with "arguing", or suggesting that people try removal? It has everything to do with the current arena does not allow fishbowling to succeed for a large majority of decks. Decks need to veer off in other directions to compensate for crazy challenges in the arena.
      Paraphrasing, of course. I've interacted with you enough to know you mean well, but when your example is someone who doesn't want to play removal there's nowhere to go. The comment also isn't aimed exclusively at you.

      I'm not even disagreeing with your advice on how to beat FRA 2.0. I'm disagreeing that it's good design for your advice to be correct.

      To go further, adding Morphology to your example deck isn't even going to really solve any problems. Hogarth will still end you and a tempo play (at the cost of a card) against Poet or Periwinkle isn't saving you either. You can start playing the equipment, but then you're taking out the equipment for something else. Then you're likely not playing the card the equipment was for. Then it cascades and you end up with an Illuminate deck with six Illuminate cards.

      You need cards from a very small subset that are generally over-tuned or at least under-costed. You get backed into playing degenerate decks to fight the degenerate decks. And, well, there's a reason people playing kitchen table Magic yell at people who bring combo decks to multiplayer.
    • Galliard wrote:

      And, well, there's a reason people playing kitchen table Magic yell at people who bring combo decks to multiplayer.
      I dont see what you bring that here since it's totally not relevant.
      I play magic a lot in multiplayer with my friend and if I yell to someone for deck like this (and yes I do) Its because i want to interact with them and play with poeple.
      Here it's different, first it's 1 vs 1 and not multi so of course you will have the best deck possible to win even with a theme. Second it's again the AI that's is designed to be hard.

      If they change the difficulty somewhere else rather than just bonus at the beggin of combat I'm ok but I think the problem is not here.

      I think the problem is a lot of poeple want play "kitchen hex" in PVE and since it's a long time AZ2 is out they go in the Arena but it's not the good place for that.

      I really think the solution is to have other PVE stuff (AZ3 ! :P )
    • VicMan wrote:

      Galliard wrote:

      And, well, there's a reason people playing kitchen table Magic yell at people who bring combo decks to multiplayer.
      I dont see what you bring that here since it's totally not relevant.I play magic a lot in multiplayer with my friend and if I yell to someone for deck like this (and yes I do) Its because i want to interact with them and play with poeple.
      Here it's different, first it's 1 vs 1 and not multi so of course you will have the best deck possible to win even with a theme. Second it's again the AI that's is designed to be hard.

      If they change the difficulty somewhere else rather than just bonus at the beggin of combat I'm ok but I think the problem is not here.

      I think the problem is a lot of poeple want play "kitchen hex" in PVE and since it's a long time AZ2 is out they go in the Arena but it's not the good place for that.

      I really think the solution is to have other PVE stuff (AZ3 ! :P )
      I do think ultimately it's the same thing.

      Just because it's 1 v 1 and I'm playing against an AI, doesn't mean I don't want to actually be interacting in the game. The AI is the one being that friend playing the cheesy deck and now I'm yelling at a computer to stop cheating and that's just sad.
    • Ya, as others have shared similar sentiments in this thread, I haven't been having as much fun in this FRA rather than the old FRA. A few points on this:

      1. Hexent mentioned that they wanted FRA 2.0 to be the end game for PVE at the moment. Most other games end games would provide the best rewards (in currency and gear (equipment and cards for hex)), meanwhile the FRA has both low gold rewards and relatively-low power level cards. The hardest content at the end game of Hex should have high gold rewards and strong cards/equipment. Hell, most of the archetypes that the FRA cards are meant to aid dont even work in the FRA. Gold needs to be higher and card/equipment rewards need to be stronger for an end game. (the exception is spiraling end, this card feels like end game loot)

      2. Auto-losses, be it from explosive starts from AI or the AI deck just shuts yours down off the start, are not fun at all. Regardless if you can just take the loss and move on, its still not fun.

      3. The ai starting off which such insane turn 0 boards and passives really does not feel good. I would rather them have 3x more powerful ai-only cards than them having the turn 0 starts, as with 3x stronger ai only cards you get time to set up counters.

      4. Deck variety. Due to the way FRA is built, it really limits successful decks. It limits the enjoyment when farming FRA for dragons/loot that there are only a few decks that can reliably clear it.
    • After I had some runs testing new deck ideas I ran into many elite encounters that also got the challenge. THIS led in most cases to ridiulous and stupid rng which was just unbeatable. I would really like to see arena be tuned down by a little.

      - no challenge for elite encounters
      - no cost reduction troops in play
      - elite Hogarth +1 cost on cards
      - Archon of Nulzan put back like 5 cards into his deck
      - Botanist turn like 5 constants or artifacts into dreadlings

      That would be by far more playable and enjoyable. While I like the hard mode I still want to play my deck and I want various decks to be viable!
    • Arkansaw wrote:

      My current terrormill can get about 50% perfect runs, with a very small chance of failed runs. Winning is not always fun but losing with any lesser deck is definitely not fun at all. Besides, some of these lesser decks are even more expensive than terrormill.
      Yes, I had given up and moved over to Terrormill, and you've just perfectly highlighted why I've stopped playing these last couple weeks.

      I take absolutely zero pleasure playing with Terrormill. When I lose, it's because of RNG, and that makes me spiteful. When I win, it's because of RNG, and that makes me not care about the win. It's not a fun deck for me. Unfortunately, it's about the only Vennen deck I can play, since setting up a nice synergistic Spidermill is basically an autoloss against any Elite, and several standard Heroes. Same goes for basically all of my "themed" decks that were once fun.

      Understand, this is not a knock against Terrormill players, nor is it me saying Terrormill cannot be fun for anyone. I dislike using it. But with the massively overbearing nature of FRA2, there's very few decks that can actually be run.
      Never shift in to reverse without a backup plan.
    • SaintVicarious wrote:

      Arkansaw wrote:

      My current terrormill can get about 50% perfect runs, with a very small chance of failed runs. Winning is not always fun but losing with any lesser deck is definitely not fun at all. Besides, some of these lesser decks are even more expensive than terrormill.
      Yes, I had given up and moved over to Terrormill, and you've just perfectly highlighted why I've stopped playing these last couple weeks.
      I take absolutely zero pleasure playing with Terrormill. When I lose, it's because of RNG, and that makes me spiteful. When I win, it's because of RNG, and that makes me not care about the win. It's not a fun deck for me. Unfortunately, it's about the only Vennen deck I can play, since setting up a nice synergistic Spidermill is basically an autoloss against any Elite, and several standard Heroes. Same goes for basically all of my "themed" decks that were once fun.

      Understand, this is not a knock against Terrormill players, nor is it me saying Terrormill cannot be fun for anyone. I dislike using it. But with the massively overbearing nature of FRA2, there's very few decks that can actually be run.
      I think it was most fun when I started with the pure budget deck and the ROI was the highest. Then after gradual improvements to the deck, I begin to realize that even playing with the best cards and archetype, it can be still hopeless with bad RNG (barring those narrow escapes which can be fun), so the motivation to perfect the deck is less since it isn't going to make much of a difference at this point. So the problem is not with terrormill or any other deck, but the arena itself. But yet I can't really complain since I have already gotten most of the FRA content by playing a single deck, and FRA is still more interesting than regular AZ content (except for the poor gold yield).
      "Winning with terrormill is not fun? Try losing with it"
    • Btw, when I mentioned the Merry Caravan deck that needed other cards to do better in arena... I was loosely referencing this post:
      The more I FRA the more I this Reserves would be good

      To me, it's no wonder why the deck did not perform. IMO, it would have to lose synergy to perform better.
      In alignment with many of you, I agree that having to lose synergy to perform well in arena is not a 'feel good' that influences you to play more HEX.

      I feel like one more tweak needs to happen to make FRA feel great again, and re-empower these types of decks, and interested deck builders. My opinion is it should be an addition to our toolbox. Not a subtraction from the AI's.
    • I'm not creative enough to imagine a tweak to the players toolbox that would make Hogarth, Sly Fox, Medic, Archon, virtually any of the elites and especially Closed Coffin fun for me to play against. I'm willing to suspend disbelief that it is possible and give whatever they try a whirl (if they go this route).
    • NicoSharp wrote:

      Btw, when I mentioned the Merry Caravan deck that needed other cards to do better in arena... I was loosely referencing this post:
      The more I FRA the more I this Reserves would be good

      To me, it's no wonder why the deck did not perform. IMO, it would have to lose synergy to perform better.
      In alignment with many of you, I agree that having to lose synergy to perform well in arena is not a 'feel good' that influences you to play more HEX.

      I feel like one more tweak needs to happen to make FRA feel great again, and re-empower these types of decks, and interested deck builders. My opinion is it should be an addition to our toolbox. Not a subtraction from the AI's.
      I think there are a FEW encounters that need tweaks of their own. Hogarth elite for one. But overall I agree with you. Empowering us(in my eyes, the ideal would be as I've said before the ability to bring a team of decks) is generally preferable to weakening our foes.
      Gamer. Streamer. Photographer. Writer. Anime Lover. Possessor of Stuffed Animals.

      Also... I'm terrible at this game.
    • Draconix wrote:

      I want more camping analogies!
      People who say they enjoy camping but want to camp in their front yard where their pool and kitchen is are arguing against the camping organizers who just want the group to go camp in the woods at night and with no cellphones.

      Airtron wrote:

      relatively-low power level cards
      Mind Games, Engrossed Bibliophile, Brutal COmmander, Xocoy and Spiraling End disagree. Leeching Burrow and Matriarch of Flames from the rare dragon encounters too. Plus a bunch out of the 361 equipment that can be won from the Arena.
    • Vroengard wrote:

      Draconix wrote:

      I want more camping analogies!
      People who say they enjoy camping but want to camp in their front yard where their pool and kitchen is are arguing against the camping organizers who just want the group to go camp in the woods at night and with no cellphones.

      Airtron wrote:

      relatively-low power level cards
      Mind Games, Engrossed Bibliophile, Brutal COmmander, Xocoy and Spiraling End disagree. Leeching Burrow and Matriarch of Flames from the rare dragon encounters too. Plus a bunch out of the 361 equipment that can be won from the Arena.
      are you suggesting glamping isn't camping!?!
    • What I personaly think doesn't matter, really, does it?

      During high school vacation (which was many years ago, %#& you for making me think about my age) my sister didn't want to sleep inside our summer cottage with the rest of the family. She brought her tent, set it up on the grass of our garden and spent their home time there, slept there at night and only stepped inside for the bathroom. I can find both just as many people to say this was camping as people who say it wasn't. It's all a matter of perspective.

      To make this slighty more relevant to the topic at hand, HXE wants FRA to be scout camping, a real hardcore experience. Some people don't like it and a certain clique is very loud about it. My problem is that as soon as the devs say something, it's not a matter of perspective any more. Word of God, if you will, calls it a camp, and I find it very petty that people try to change it to suit themselves, when there are other things they can turn to. Now, if they don't like A, don't like B, and don't like suggested things C and D, then that's a problem. With them.

      The post was edited 1 time, last by Vroengard ().

    • Vroengard wrote:

      Draconix wrote:

      I want more camping analogies!
      People who say they enjoy camping but want to camp in their front yard where their pool and kitchen is are arguing against the camping organizers who just want the group to go camp in the woods at night and with no cellphones.

      Airtron wrote:

      relatively-low power level cards
      Mind Games, Engrossed Bibliophile, Brutal COmmander, Xocoy and Spiraling End disagree. Leeching Burrow and Matriarch of Flames from the rare dragon encounters too. Plus a bunch out of the 361 equipment that can be won from the Arena.
      As for Commander and Xocoy, those two are from the last set of arena rewards. Perhaps I should have clarified the 2.0 FRA rewards. I did mention that spiraling end was an exception in my post. As for the first two, they are pretty good. However, I would argue that they do not feel like end-game rewards (at least yet) because at the moment they are a tad too slow. Overall however, most of the FRA cards are relatively low power, especially most of the uncommons. (with the strongest being mawstorm IMO)
    • Vroengard wrote:

      What I personaly think doesn't matter, really, does it?

      During high school vacation (which was many years ago, %#& you for making me think about my age) my sister didn't want to sleep inside our summer cottage with the rest of the family. She brought her tent, set it up on the grass of our garden and spent their home time there, slept there at night and only stepped inside for the bathroom. I can find both just as many people to say this was camping as people who say it wasn't. It's all a matter of perspective.

      To make this slighty more relevant to the topic at hand, HXE wants FRA to be scout camping, a real hardcore experience. Some people don't like it and a certain clique is very loud about it. My problem is that as soon as the devs say something, it's not a matter of perspective any more. Word of God, if you will, calls it a camp, and I find it very petty that people try to change it to suit themselves, when there are other things they can turn to. Now, if they don't like A, don't like B, and don't like suggested things C and D, then that's a problem. With them.
      That's exactly what I say from the start, thanks for saying this way.
      We need more PVE experience not change the Arena. :thumbup:
    • Vroengard wrote:

      What I personaly think doesn't matter, really, does it?

      During high school vacation (which was many years ago, %#& you for making me think about my age) my sister didn't want to sleep inside our summer cottage with the rest of the family. She brought her tent, set it up on the grass of our garden and spent their home time there, slept there at night and only stepped inside for the bathroom. I can find both just as many people to say this was camping as people who say it wasn't. It's all a matter of perspective.

      To make this slighty more relevant to the topic at hand, HXE wants FRA to be scout camping, a real hardcore experience. Some people don't like it and a certain clique is very loud about it. My problem is that as soon as the devs say something, it's not a matter of perspective any more. Word of God, if you will, calls it a camp, and I find it very petty that people try to change it to suit themselves, when there are other things they can turn to. Now, if they don't like A, don't like B, and don't like suggested things C and D, then that's a problem. With them.
      So is your opinion that FRA needs no tweaking and they got it perfect at release? I'm honestly curious, because it will give me some real insight in how you see the whole design process.
    • VicMan wrote:

      We need more PVE experience not change the Arena.
      While I agree with the first part (I even posted a long suggestion about it Hex Campaign Suggestions ), I cannot fathom the mindset that believes that their first attempt at vastly increasing difficulty is perfect, when there are some pretty clear misses on it.

      I've never seen anything in a game that was 'perfect' the first time. There are definitely things tthat can be tweaked, and even Hex has recognized that. They have stated straight up that there are some places they went overboard... because design is an iterative process. It is up to the users to help the development team find the things that still need iteration so they can continue to refine it until hits the right mark. People who pretend it's perfect are just slowing down that process...
      Gamer. Streamer. Photographer. Writer. Anime Lover. Possessor of Stuffed Animals.

      Also... I'm terrible at this game.