Observations regarding the Hex leaderboards

    • Ii think we agree on more than you think..i also have an issue with new cosmic joiners getting top 10 since i think its bugged..

      I do understand that dropping while not playing is normal. As to moving from 14 to 12...again..it was when i didnt played. I agree though that its not too bad. That why I think we are not necessarily disagreeing at all.

      My frustration/demotivation comes with the intransparency. If I knew the system (thats why I would be so in favor of jeffs suggestion) I would just knew what I need to do and how it is judged. Right now I am not sure how the system works and I doubt any player knows. For example it seems like the higher your rank the more likely you can sit out without dropping (something I experienced in season 1). Might be nice to know how many games Biz played and with which record.

      People might be very surprised (even the ones who think its mostly about play more).
    • Metronomy wrote:

      Ii think we agree on more than you think..i also have an issue with new cosmic joiners getting top 10 since i think its bugged..

      I do understand that dropping while not playing is normal. As to moving from 14 to 12...again..it was when i didnt played. I agree though that its not too bad. That why I think we are not necessarily disagreeing at all.

      My frustration/demotivation comes with the intransparency. If I knew the system (thats why I would be so in favor of jeffs suggestion) I would just knew what I need to do and how it is judged. Right now I am not sure how the system works and I doubt any player knows. For example it seems like the higher your rank the more likely you can sit out without dropping (something I experienced in season 1). Might be nice to know how many games Biz played and with which record.

      People might be very surprised (even the ones who think its mostly about play more).
      Well, based on the gaining rank thread, I don't know if Hex is actually looking into the entry placement or if they will just look at the abnormal movement in the first week. I really hope its both.

      Without naming names, you moving up when you didn't play too much is because I know the players ahead of you lost, so you overtaking them is all but natural.

      Okay, I can agree with that - but particularly more so this season since I have my doubts about the ranking accuracy given the what I believe to be a bugged ladder in the first week. I haven't played Biz yet this season, but from what I've heard (with no disrespect to him) he doesn't have a particularly good win rate. Which is why it feels off to me because typically the buffer in the first few weeks of the season is quite low.
    • Metronomy - you know the $5K they're giving away every 2 months isn't altruism, right?

      The CCS exists to encourage constructed play and sell packs. If it were solely, or even more heavily, based on win rate, activity (number of people in the Gauntlet) would fall way off after folks had met the threshold requirement. People not being able to play games = less interest in playing Constructed = fewer packs sales = less HEX development resources.

      I think sometimes people forget that HEX is a money-making (hopefully! ;) ) venture. They're always having to balance giving us what we want with keeping the game financially healthy.

      And, as I've said many times before, you're not going to get full transparency here. As soon as they do that folks will work out how to game the system, and that just can't happen.
      Hex: Shards of Fate KS | Producer | Bounty of the Magus Highlands Magus

      "Hoarded or shared, knowledge is the most fearsome weapon of all."
      "The Magi of the Carloth highlands are renowned for their enthusiasm and generosity."
      "Speed is far more important than size when determining the power of a strike."
      "One needs no armor if both your mind and your fist are faster than your enemy's."
    • >> a) Please create some more transparency

      Hi. I am a game designer by trade and I worked on the MMO City of Heroes for several years. As a game developer I caution GREATLY against transparency. While it is a nice thing to do for your players, it's also how you ruin your game.

      The more transparency you give the players the more they will look for (and find) ways to abuse the system. I am not saying YOU will look for ways to abuse the system, but someone will. Many people will. And they will find an edge case or loophole that obfuscation hides and that obfuscation is giving the developers what they want out of the system.

      And then you have a system where some people who know the ins and outs abuse the system and get all the top ranks, and some people (maybe even you) don't use the exploitive loopholes and languish at the bottom of cosmic.

      I beg Hex, PLEASE do not give us transparency. Without it we are ALL on equal footing with whatever ruleset you are running to calculate the ladder.

      (Also, without transparency, Hex Ent can easily TWEAK or CHANGE the rules without having to inform the players that a change has occurred in order to get the results in line with what they are expecting, and that's a good thing even though you might not think it is.)
    • There is a spectrum between full transparency and no transparency at all.

      There is a spectrum between playing more having no impact and playing more being the only deciding factor (not sayint it is).
      I am fine with playing more having some impact. The question is how much.

      Also...again...look at other comparable games.
      I have played a lot other digitial tcgs with leaderboards.
      Hex has the worst system I know (or dont know for that matter ;) ).

      The real tragedy is that from what I witness from far away the system in China is the best system I could ever hope for (and thats not even another game :D ).

      As to Biz: The point isnt even so much about that he gained rank 1. The point is that he stayed there even after the supposedly fix.
    • Metronomy wrote:

      There is a spectrum between full transparency and no transparency.

      There is a spectrum between playing more having no impact and playing more being the only deciding factor (not sayint it is).
      I am fine with playing more having some impact. The question is how much.

      Also...again...look at other comparable games.
      I have played a lot other digitial tcgs with leaderboards.
      Hex has the worst system I know (or dont know ;) ).

      The real tragedy is that from what I witness from far away the system in China is the best system I could ever hope for.
      "tragedy" - it's a card game! For entertainment! Defunding meals for seniors and veterans who can't afford them and the NEA are ACTUAL tragedies.

      You know basically how it works. You get points for winning, you lose points for losing, the "quality" of your wins and losses matter, and there's a hidden score that determines your ranking that generally increases over time for the population of players. Any more detail and folks could start gaming the system. How is that "no transparency"?

      Also, and importantly, HEX is working to improve the experience of having to keep playing games to maintain rank over time. As Cory has mentioned there will soon be a currency you can earn playing Cosmic games that allow you to buy things that can only be bought with that currency.
      Hex: Shards of Fate KS | Producer | Bounty of the Magus Highlands Magus

      "Hoarded or shared, knowledge is the most fearsome weapon of all."
      "The Magi of the Carloth highlands are renowned for their enthusiasm and generosity."
      "Speed is far more important than size when determining the power of a strike."
      "One needs no armor if both your mind and your fist are faster than your enemy's."
    • Come on now..you focus on the fact that I used the word "tragedy"..really ?
      I am sorry if I offended you...honestly didnt think someone would take issue with that word choice.
      For the record...you are correct, Sir. If you think I am passionate about hex you should see the cornerstone "political" section in our discord :D .

      As to more transparency: We will just have to wait and see wether or not we will get more transparency (corey statements make me optimistic). I would again say that apparently other games show that you can have a lot more transparency.

      As to the coins..I like the idea very much. I didnt talk about that factor since we know there is something coming up.
      Details matter but I will talk about it once we know more.

      The post was edited 2 times, last by Metronomy ().

    • What transparency are you looking for? This is one of those things where if you know just a little, you know too much. There is lots of information given out on how the ladder works, I can't even imagine what kind of transparency you want without giving too much information. You say there is a low and high spectrum. I say that doesn't exist.
    • Lets start with displaying our rating...there is more though...hex in china is the most i could hope for without 100% full transparency..

      They display rating and call it Elo (rating doesnt necessarily mean Elo but they make it clear), number of games played, winrate and the difference k-values for different brackets.

      Infinity wars say its Elo and show the rating as well. HS isnt much better than Hex but i played on legend (although it has been a long time ago) and that system seemed better in terms of movement and rewarding wins (although it is the 2nd worst example I know). Gwent shows rating, wins and losses. Faeria shows rating and calls it Elo. Shadowverse displays score numbers.

      Look at other games before you say there clearly is no other way..hack..look at hex china for my favorite system (which doesnt mean I wouldnt be happy with less)..

      The post was edited 4 times, last by Metronomy ().

    • Colin wrote:

      And, as I've said many times before, you're not going to get full transparency here. As soon as they do that folks will work out how to game the system, and that just can't happen.

      DeckOfManyThings wrote:

      The more transparency you give the players the more they will look for (and find) ways to abuse the system. I am not saying YOU will look for ways to abuse the system, but someone will. Many people will. And they will find an edge case or loophole that obfuscation hides and that obfuscation is giving the developers what they want out of the system.
      There's a general principle with regards to security which says that relying on the mechanics of your system being secret for the security of your system is a terrible idea.

      The reasoning is simple: you can't guarantee that those mechanics will remain secret to everyone. In this case, some people may figure out how the system works through trial and error or other ways, then exploit those mechanics for themselves. In other words, the same dire consequences which you two predict with transparency will still happen without transparency, except worse.

      That's why instead of hiding your system's flaws with obfuscation which some people may see through, you need to fix those flaws.
    • Ladder had hiccup at start for sure.

      However i have a feeling that they do change the way it work. I dont have exact data to prove this but from my observations it actualy did improve in a way that wining is rewarded more. And ranks of poeple do matter now, as it felt it ddint at first seasons.

      Speaking limited ladder
      past sesaons person like JEff who drafts only had literally not a slight chance to be in top 20 on laddder when seaons started with new set .The pure spam of sealed was vastly superior and pure drafters were milies behind. I also have a feeling that EVo is no longer the grind spot. I played evo wuth quite decnet win rate last week and i was more loosing spots than moving up. Even when on friday i hit 5-1 5-1 5-0 i gained maybe from 26 to 24. Than on saturday i moved to sealed gauntlet where almsot all top 20-25limited ranks are and my rank actualy started moving forward ...

      Could be just coincindence but i realy started to feel that EVO gives very little rank now.
    • Metronomy wrote:

      Lets start with displaying our rating...there is more though...hex in china is the most i could hope for without 100% full transparency..

      They display rating and call it Elo (rating doesnt necessarily mean Elo but they make it clear), number of games played, winrate and the difference k-values for different brackets.

      Infinity wars say its Elo and show the rating as well. HS isnt much better than Hex but i played on legend (although it has been a long time ago) and that system seemed better in terms of movement and rewarding wins (although it is the 2nd worst example I know). Gwent shows rating, wins and losses. Faeria shows rating and calls it Elo. Shadowverse displays score numbers.

      Look at other games before you say there clearly is no other way..hack..look at hex china for my favorite system (which doesnt mean I wouldnt be happy with less)..
      So say they show the MMR rating they use for the top 100 players. How would this benefit? I'm not agreeing or disagreeing, just curious on how this information would affect you. Are you avidly trying to look for a flaw in the system?
    • I dont get why this is so hard to understand. If I see my rating I see how it changed after a win/loss. I see wether or not it mattered (and by how much) against who I played and by how much their rating changed. I also see the gaps between each rank and can calculate accordingly. When I see I am one point away I feel motivated to play one more. If I see im 1000 points away and a win gains me 10 points on average I can calculate and probalby stop trying and invest my time in something more useful. Just displaying the rating would also answer many open questions. Is there decay ? Is it really about play more and by how much (realtion between points gained/lost per match) ? How come there are more ties the more the people play ?

      Not sure how that would be an abuse of a system. When it comes to abuses/exploits I agree with Mach. Best way to make sure a flaw isnt exploited is to fix it.

      The post was edited 3 times, last by Metronomy ().

    • I hold the following opinion:

      Anyone that clamors for transparency to the point that they are adamant in their reasoning is hoping that the developer caves so they can see the workings of the system and figure out exactly how to manipulate it to suit their own needs.

      Even if they don't realize that this is their actual intention.
    • Metronomy wrote:

      I dont get why this is so hard to understand. If I see my rating I see how it changed after a win/loss. I see wether or not it mattered (and by how much) against who I played and by how much their rating changed. I also see the gaps between each rank and can calculate accordingly. When I see I am one point away I feel motivated to play one more. If I see im 1000 points away and a win gains me 10 points on average I can calculate and probalby stop trying and invest my time in something more useful. Just displaying the rating would also answer many open questions. Is there decay ? Is it really about play more and by how much (realtion between points gained/lost per match) ? How come there are more ties the more the people play ?

      Not sure how that would be an abuse of a system. When it comes to abuses/exploits I agree with Mach. Best way to make sure a flaw isnt exploited is to fix it.

      It's not the matter of understanding Metro, it's the matter of you realizing what you are saying.

      Elwinz caught you. You do not need the security of a numerical rating to ensure your ranking or determine when you should play. Just play if it's fun. If not, then stop. No one is holding a gun to your head forcing you to play the ladder. If you want to compete for $5k, then take the effort to do so. It may just be you, but I'm sure there are many that wouldn't even blink an eye at the rating. You even said it yourself, if the ratings were available, you could eventually figure out the algorithms used for wins and losses that make up the MMR.

      It's not a matter if there exists an abuse or exploit, it's that no one knows about it. Why open up a can a worms by allowing people to abuse the system you created? It's hidden, there are no issues now.
    • DeckOfManyThings wrote:

      I hold the following opinion:

      Anyone that clamors for transparency to the point that they are adamant in their reasoning is hoping that the developer caves so they can see the workings of the system and figure out exactly how to manipulate it to suit their own needs.

      Even if they don't realize that this is their actual intention.
      Do you think the NFL is hurt by everyone knowing every ones standings and precise defined rules on how to get to super bowl?
    • Elwinz caught me ?..seriously ?

      People wouldnt play anymore when they would display ratings ?

      Come on guys..thats not how it works..

      Can you comment then on why almost all other comparable games show rating ?

      Also comment on what sinkhole says.

      Edit: Ah I see...NFL is not hex. I would say its comparable though since both are leaderboards. Leaderboard systems that try to measure the best are comparable to one another in how they work to fulfil that goal. Also is Hex comparable to Hex ? I almost dread you are going to say no because chinese people are different people than the rest of the world (interestingly enough all I know about chinese player habits is that they actually enjoy grinding/farming in mmos...in general though I would dispute the notion that its not comparable because chinese are different outright)...okay then..how about any of the other games I mentioned ?

      2nd edit: "Its hidden, we don't know if there are any issues/bugs now" would be a more accurate statement Piecetinker.

      The post was edited 6 times, last by Metronomy ().

    • Sinkhole wrote:

      DeckOfManyThings wrote:

      I hold the following opinion:

      Anyone that clamors for transparency to the point that they are adamant in their reasoning is hoping that the developer caves so they can see the workings of the system and figure out exactly how to manipulate it to suit their own needs.

      Even if they don't realize that this is their actual intention.
      Do you think the NFL is hurt by everyone knowing every ones standings and precise defined rules on how to get to super bowl?

      There are a set number of teams that can compete in the NFL every season. Hex has the potential of up to every human being on the planet. You are comparing a small platform to a huge platform. Very easy to maintain a small subset compared to a larger one. Does the NFL determine outcomes by RNG? No, it doesn't. Hell the only point of RNG in Football is the coin flip. TCGs by nature are of manipulating randomness into consistency. Do Poker systems have an Elo rating? No they rank everyone by how much they have earned from a start and end date.

      Metronomy wrote:

      When I see I am one point away I feel motivated to play one more. If I see im 1000 points away and a win gains me 10 points on average I can calculate and probalby stop trying and invest my time in something more useful.

      Metronomy wrote:

      People wouldnt play anymore when they would display ratings ?
      You said it yourself, unless you don't consider yourself to be a part of the group known as "people".