Tobias Belch' Charge Power

    • Tobias Belch' Charge Power

      I hadn't initially recognised the Transformation deck theme sneaking its way in via the Merry Squirrel, Belligerent Badger, Cocoonomancer, Whimsy Witch and the like, but when I spotted it, I was eager to try it out. I bought Tobias off the auction house to try and set up a Wild/Sapphire transformation deck to see if I can get it to work, after all, Tobias' Charge Power (Transform target troop you control into a troop of the same shards with cost +1) is a perfect fit for it.

      However, it very quickly became obvious why Tobias is selling for so little platinum. It is an entirely unmanageable merc. The wildly fluctuating card cost makes him very hard to use, but the biggest problem is his charge power. It's not +1 off the current, effective cost as indicated in the value at the top left, but it's +1 off the base value, and then subsequently it gets all prior cost ups and cost downs from his drunken passives applied.

      This is entirely unmanageable as it is impossible to keep track of which direction the costs have changed and by how much. I had a... I think 2 cost card tank down to -1 and then it refused to transform further.

      Please change Tobias' charge power to be in line with Holiday's, which is far more straightforward and far more usable than this.
    • In other words, the satyr mercenary's active says it transforms your card into a random card with +1 cost. What it says:
      1. Current cost +1
      2. Transform.
      What it does:
      1. Current cost +1
      2. Transform.
      3. Current cost + previous changes.
      For example, his passive increased my Poppy Pixie's cost from 3 to 6, and then his active transformed Poppy Pixie into Snarlbrute, which should have a cost of 7, but it has a cost of 10 because his active includes previous changes. Other transformation cards like Holiday, Polyberry Pouch, and Transmogrifade say essentially the same thing don't include previous changes.
    • Not quite how it's been working for me I think. In the example you give, it wouldn't change into a Snarlbrute, but into a 10 cost troop.

      For example, I used the power on a troop with cost above 1, and it turned into a Copycat because its cost dropped to 0 after the changes were applied.

      Then again, the difference might be in that the other experience I have in 'transform with cost change' effects has to do with radiated cost changes from Recruiters. Even so, Tobias' charge power is insanely unwieldy with his passives due to the way this works and would make more sense if it treated the cost changes as radiated and not part of the card.
    • From my testing, Tobias' power works exactly like Holiday and Polyberry Pouch (with the minor difference of being restricted to troops in the same shards). So I'm not sure what the problem is here. I'm not seeing the behavior you see Firellius, with a positive-cost troop transforming into a zero-cost like Copycat. Could you maybe provide some before and after screenshots of a transformation that isn't making sense to you?
    • Perandus wrote:

      In other words, the satyr mercenary's active says it transforms your card into a random card with +1 cost. What it says:
      1. Current cost +1
      2. Transform.
      What it does:
      1. Current cost +1
      2. Transform.
      3. Current cost + previous changes.
      For example, his passive increased my Poppy Pixie's cost from 3 to 6, and then his active transformed Poppy Pixie into Snarlbrute, which should have a cost of 7, but it has a cost of 10 because his active includes previous changes. Other transformation cards like Holiday, Polyberry Pouch, and Transmogrifade say essentially the same thing don't include previous changes.
      This is actually how it's supposed to work. You have Card A with base cost 1. It gets a permanent effect applied to it giving cost +3 (new cost 4). You apply a new permanent effect to it causing it to transform into a card of cost+1 (4+1=5). You now have a 5 base cost card with a permanent effect applied to it giving it cost +3 (new cost 8 ). That isn't how Transmogrifade works because Transmogrifade reverts before it transforms. The others work exactly as you describe.
    • Zurai,

      I didn't know other transformations work that way, thank you. It seems very confusing because the text says:
      • "Transform target troop into a random troop with cost +1."
      But what it does is:
      • "Transform target troop into a random troop with cost +1, and then apply previous changes to its cost."
      I agree with Firellius that keeping track of previous changes makes the satyr's active and passive "very hard to use."
    • Perandus wrote:

      And permanent modifiers don't always persist through transformations, because when a card transforms into another card type, (i.e. troop into constant), it automatically reverts.
      This is not true to any degree. Cards only revert if an effect explicitly tells them to revert -- which, again, Transmogrifade (one of very few effects which can change a troop to a constant) does -- and they otherwise retain all permanent changes. For example, take Martyred Saint. If you were to give Martyred Saint permanent cost +1 (so cost 6 total) and then have it die, the resulting Saved Soul would be cost 5 (base 4, +1 for the permanent cost increase effect). When an Ardent troop entered your hand, the Saved Soul would then revert because Saved Soul explicitly says to revert it and you would have a cost 5 Martyred Soul in play.
    • Zurai wrote:

      Perandus wrote:

      And permanent modifiers don't always persist through transformations, because when a card transforms into another card type, (i.e. troop into constant), it automatically reverts.
      This is not true to any degree. Cards only revert if an effect explicitly tells them to revert -- which, again, Transmogrifade (one of very few effects which can change a troop to a constant) does -- and they otherwise retain all permanent changes. For example, take Martyred Saint. If you were to give Martyred Saint permanent cost +1 (so cost 6 total) and then have it die, the resulting Saved Soul would be cost 5 (base 4, +1 for the permanent cost increase effect). When an Ardent troop entered your hand, the Saved Soul would then revert because Saved Soul explicitly says to revert it and you would have a cost 5 Martyred Soul in play.
      No, Perandus is correct, at least half-correct. Whenever a troop transforms into a non-troop card, it reverts. Transforming non-troops into troops or non-troops into non-troops that are a different card type do not cause a reversion. Only troop to non-troop.

      However, the modifiers to cost do work as intended. If you take a troop with base cost 3 and +2 cost, and transform it into a troop with +1 cost, then it will transform into a card with base cost 6. Now it's a troop with base cost 6, but the +2 cost has not gone away, so it costs 8 to play.
    • Perandus wrote:

      No, the rule says that. The text doesn't.
      The text actually DOES say that since it doesn't say that it reverts. Permanent modifiers always persist through transformations EXCEPT in the case of troop to non-troop as Steric says. That's why a lot of transformation effects specify they revert BEFORE they transform, so that permanent modifiers don't persist.

      Another example of this is the dingle card. If you empower a card and prophecy something onto it... and I dingle it as it comes into play, it's not going to be a 0/1 dingler. It's going to be a dingler with the prophesied effect and the empower bonuses on it. Because dingle doesn't revert. Polymorph Dingler however does revert, so that will turn it into a 0/1 dingler.
      Gamer. Streamer. Photographer. Writer. Anime Lover. Possessor of Stuffed Animals.

      Also... I'm terrible at this game.
    • So I have built a deck with the mercenary, he is definitely super abusable - try troops with empower and tunneling. You can play the empowered troops for cheap (like turn 2 6/4) or tunnel the expensive troops to transform them later (for example to 6 or 7 costs) ;)

      More importantly, the power does not seem to be working as you would expect, however it has something to do with how the cost reduction is applied and transformation in general (as posters above implied). I have used it to transform Auspex of Lanupaw (cost 4) and got a Dreamsmoke mystic (cost 3). I don't have a screenshot, but luckily I had Holiday's Whim in hand to replicate it. See screenshots below:
      [Blocked Image: http://i.imgur.com/uT1flvp.jpg]

      After using +1 the troop transformed from 3 cost (showing 1 cost) to 2 cost (showing 0 cost), which seems counter-intuitive at best.
      [Blocked Image: http://i.imgur.com/0Rqskjq.jpg]

      @HEXahedron would this still be intended behavior?
    • And one more example for increasing cost - see Rune Ear Burrower on the right:
      4 cost troop that was increased to 6 goes transforms with +1 to 7 cost troops which then transforms with +1 to 10 cost troop (I double checked, this was +1 Whim, because next Whim I drew was +2)
      [Blocked Image: http://i.imgur.com/UBRnW70.jpg]
      [Blocked Image: http://i.imgur.com/rAH22Ml.jpg]
      [Blocked Image: http://i.imgur.com/CVgHCR2.jpg]
    • I don't think that the behaviour you describe is counter-intuitive at all; actually, I think it makes perfect sense within the basic rules of HEX.

      A 3-cost troop has a modifier of -2 cost (i.e.it's cost 1). When you target it with Holiday's Whim, the effect checks the cards cost (i.e. 1), and transforms it into a card with the same cost +1 (i.e. 2). The modifier remains, as no reversion was involved, making the cards cost 0.
    • @Sethanon both of those examples are working correctly. Like others have pointed out, the troop will keep its modifiers when it transforms.

      So when you have a Dreamsmoke Mystic with cost -2, and use an effect that transforms it into a random troop with cost +1 the game says "Okay, the target has cost 1, so I'm going to search the database for a random troop with cost equal to 2. I've found Furious Smasher, so now I'm going to apply a 'transform into Furious Smasher' effect to the target." Once the troop is a Furious Smasher, it still has the -2 cost buff, so it displays as 0 cost.