Feedback/suggestions for inevitable Phenteo's Gift adjustment

    • Feedback/suggestions for inevitable Phenteo's Gift adjustment

      While we are all having our fill of various 'Terrormill' decks stomping FRA at the moment, I think deep down we all know & accept that the inevitable conclusion is an adjustment (*cough* nerf *cough*) to Phenteo's Gift - similar to the outcome for Dream cards & Ethereal Healer.

      With even the super-premium Slaughtergear cards being adjusted recently, a campaign PvE card that is easily farmable by anyone* and thus carries no monetary value is certainly fair game.

      * PSA for any new players; DON'T PAY FOR THIS CARD! Create a Vennen ranger campaign character, play the main story passed the gnomes to the Dwarf city, repeat - you're guaranteed Pheneto's Gift and 2 other cool Vennen PvE cards each time. :thumbup:

      So, why not share your feedabck & suggestions of potential rebalances - might even ultimately help shape it! :D

      Components

      Phenteo's Gift
      1B
      BASIC ACTION
      Create two Terrorantula Eggs for each opposing champion and put them into their deck.

      Terrorantula Egg
      BANE - Egg
      When this enters your hand or crypt, put the top card of the deck into that zone. Void this. A random opposing champion summons a Terrorantula.

      Terror Touched Blade
      Slot: Weapon
      Your Phenteo's Gifts instead have, "Create three Terrorantula Eggs for each opposing champion and put them into their deck."

      Terror Tined Tunic
      Slot: Chest
      Your Phenteo's Gifts have, "When a Terrorantula enters play under your control, if this in your crypt, put this into your hand."

      The Phenteo dimension

      While not technically impossible to the letter of the law - since Terrorantula Egg & Terrorantula aren't exactly PvP cards - I don't think they can really be adjusted on account of being bound to PvP legendary Phenteo the Brood Priest.

      My thoughts & suggestions

      Personally I think Terror Tined Tunic is the candidate for a rebalance.

      1. The recursion downgrade...

      Terror Tined Tunic
      Slot: Chest
      Your Phenteo's Gifts have, " [ONESHOT] : When a Terrorantula enters play under your control, if this in your crypt, put this into your hand."

      ^ This isn't really far off "when you play this, copy it" by & large - that is way beyond the power level of most action equipment, so hardly cause for complaint.

      2. The recursion condition...

      Terror Tined Tunic
      Slot: Chest
      Your Phenteo's Gifts have, "Vennen Allegiance: When a Terrorantula enters play under your control, if this in your crypt, put this into your hand."

      ^ This imposes a significant limitation on the recursion aspect - since efficient mill decks aren't currently big on troops - and fits perfectly with this being a racial card.

      3. The recursion sacrifice...

      Terror Tined Tunic
      Slot: Chest
      Your Phenteo's Gifts have, " [BASIC] While this is in your crypt: Sacrifice two troops -> Put this into your hand."

      ^ Still conceptually allows any mill deck to 'go infinite' by utilizing the destruction effect of summoned Terrorantulas and then sacrificing them, but requires more work and the sacrifice of flooding the board with Terrorantula bodies at the same time. Possibly an upgrade for mill-light Vennen decks, who would happily lose a few Spiderlings for a recast.

      4. Well, it is technically still recursion...

      Terror Tined Tunic
      Slot: Chest
      Your Phenteo's Gifts have, "Put this into your deck."

      ^ Basically move away from boundless recursion to simply recurring in the same way Escalate cards do; going back into your card pool each time.

      5. Recursion no more - rising terror...

      Terror Tined Tunic
      Slot: Chest
      Your Phenteo's Gifts have, "Move each bane in each opposing champion's deck up three spaces."

      ^ Venturing in to pure Vennen deck territory, gives Phenteo's Gift a little extra oomph.

      6. Recursion no more - sad trombone...

      Terror Tined Tunic
      Slot: Chest
      Your Phenteo's Gifts have, "Create an Incubate and put it into your hand."

      ^ Basically emphasis the fact that this is a racial card that you can earn in your first hour of campaign - a free common card with a common equipment, to get the egg strategy gestating.
      Member of The Unnamed Council - the Hex TCG PvE Guild
    • It actually never occurred to me that Phenteo's Gift was the problem card.

      I want to caution HXE to take away all forms of early recursion and cheat mechanics we have access to. It is extremely fun to play with in the PvE space. Removing all aspects of that really narrows the design space players get to experience and enjoy.

      If for some reason, HEX feels the need to nerf Phenteo's Gift equipment - The recursion equipment should at the very least say. "If this is in your crypt, when a Terrorantula enters play, put this from the crypt back into your hand. It gets, "when you play this put this into your deck, and draw a card".
    • I don't think Phenteo's Gift is the heart of the mill element (Spiraling End seems to me to be what makes milling a reality), but it's what enables an easy "kill everything while you set milling in motion" element - it would seem a long step down from Phenteo's Gift to say relying 100% on Spirit of Retribution or Extinction.

      Though I can't say I've tried playing the current mill style without Terror Tined Tunic for science, to see if it really makes a huge difference.
      Member of The Unnamed Council - the Hex TCG PvE Guild
    • Phenteo's Gift is not a problem card because it does not allow kills turn 3 or lower by itself consistently. The cards like Enter the Dream, Xocoy, Slaughtergears and The Crowd Roars were nerfed because they provided consistent super early kills. Phenteo's Gift is not one of those cards.
    • I think there are two things that need to be addressed in terms of balance concerns:

      1) Strategies that are too reliably fast.
      2) "Opponent Agnostic" strategies - ie. strategies that win regardless of what the opponent does.


      Phenteo's gift isn't too fast, but it certainly doesn't care what the opponent does. Even the 'mill hate' deck doesn't really stop terrormill from working. It just kind of stops the mill side of the win condition.

      It wouldn't surprise me to see it nerfed. It creates a situation where there's very little Hex can do to ever challenge the player unless they create something that hates it to the level that botanist hates on constants. The only way to really create an encounter that would be good against terrormill would be to give it a stupid passive like 'If a bane would be added to your deck, add it to your opponent's deck in stead'.
      Gamer. Streamer. Photographer. Writer. Anime Lover. Possessor of Stuffed Animals.

      Also... I'm terrible at this game.
    • Corvus wrote:

      I don't think Phenteo's Gift is the heart of the mill element (Spiraling End seems to me to be what makes milling a reality), but it's what enables an easy "kill everything while you set milling in motion" element - it would seem a long step down from Phenteo's Gift to say relying 100% on Spirit of Retribution or Extinction.

      Though I can't say I've tried playing the current mill style without Terror Tined Tunic for science, to see if it really makes a huge difference.
      Spiralling End is too slow; I don't even run it because it would never actually make a difference. Phenteo's Gift isn't really a mill card at all -- it doesn't mill any cards on its own and doesn't increase the number of cards milled -- so of course it isn't the heart of the mill element. It is, as you note, a hideously efficient alternate (slash primary) win condition which is highly synergistic with the mill element.

      I very strongly expect something from Terrormill to get a nerf, and it'll be either Phenteo's Gift or Nazhk Lookout (or both). The latter is an incredibly efficient mill card (especially combined with Fever Bloom) which the AI simply doesn't understand.
    • If it is solely due to FRA they can simply grant immunity to spiders to some boss. Don't even need to touch the card itself.

      As long as Lookout is in play I consider Acorn as mill cards, what more with infinite spiders?

      Besides, the 1-cost milling cards they added for Heartstone should take most of the blame anyway. This mechanic was encouraged by these cards, even if it turns out to be more effective than intended.
      "Winning with terrormill is not fun? Try losing with it"

      The post was edited 1 time, last by Arkansaw ().

    • Noone ever complained about Phenteo's Gift being OP before the Slaughtergear and TCR nerfs and the FRA changes. Phenteo's Gift hasn't changed at all since it was introduced. If one nerf leads people to cry for nerfs on the next viable thing, in 1 year we'll be asking to nerf basic shards.

      TL;DR You don't nerf the No1 card/strategy. You nerf the OP card/strategy.

      This thread is a mistake and I expect all the salty people to flock in here because their favorite deck suddenly showed its weakness or was nerfed, and so they can't fathom that other viable decks exist.
    • Vroengard wrote:

      Noone ever complained about Phenteo's Gift being OP before the Slaughtergear and TCR nerfs and the FRA changes. Phenteo's Gift hasn't changed at all since it was introduced. If one nerf leads people to cry for nerfs on the next viable thing, in 1 year we'll be asking to nerf basic shards.

      TL;DR You don't nerf the No1 card/strategy. You nerf the OP card/strategy.

      This thread is a mistake and I expect all the salty people to flock in here because their favorite deck suddenly showed its weakness or was nerfed, and so they can't fathom that other viable decks exist.
      Your condescending tone is getting old.
    • I'm not sure a nerf is required or not, but it's something I'm sure they're discussing. If it has to happen, I think slowing the card itself down would make the most sense. Having it cost 2 with double blood threshold might slow it down enough that it would give the AI the chance to do something, plus it would make the recursion less of an issue since it would cost more to play each one.

      I think the bigger issue is that mill is so easy and powerful. One way they could hinder that strategy is to increase the deck size of the AI. I mean, it's not like the AI has to worry about deck building limitations so they could run 75-80 card decks with 6 or more copies of the important cards to ensure they draw into them.
    • My apologies. I assumed you were talking about one of the Fateweave decks because those are the only examples I know of which only have 2 actual cards in them, and since you neglected to provide any other info I had no choice but to make that assumption. Let me amend my statement then: the problem isn't with Xocoy, it's with whatever loophole in the rules allows you to run a 2 card deck and not get smashed.
    • Regardless of whether everybody uses Spirit of Retribution or not in their version of Terrormill, its equipment is the nerf target, and will simply require a [DIAMOND] threshold to have the ability to be put in play. It happened to the Dream deck, it happened to the Ethereal Healer, it will happen to Spirit of Retribution.
    • Fred wrote:

      Regardless of whether everybody uses Spirit of Retribution or not in their version of Terrormill, its equipment is the nerf target, and will simply require a [DIAMOND] threshold to have the ability to be put in play. It happened to the Dream deck, it happened to the Ethereal Healer, it will happen to Spirit of Retribution.
      I agree. Personally I think any of this stuff that comes into play for free needs at least a threshold requirement