Asynch draft experience results

    • JeffHoogland wrote:

      My last comment in this thread is this:

      There is a reason "traditional" pod drafts don't exist in other digital TCGs. Only reason they really exist in paper games is because that is the only way to feasibly handle a draft.

      Even MTGO has "out of pod play" for drafts. The user experience by and far is just better on average.
      lots of people complain about the lack of real drafts on mtgo as well

      cross-pod play is a sacrifice of balance + depth + self-determination in exchange for increased convenience

      not everyone thinks convenience is more important than any of the other 3, let alone all of them combined

      and in hex's case (low player population), that convenience is only partially true because for half the timezones in the world the old drafts had more consistent waiting times than the gauntlets
    • Pandaemonium wrote:

      I think he is saying that it is partially like sealed because you may not be in the same pod you drafted. Also, the format no longer really rewards hate drafting like it use to.

      One issue that isn't brought up as much is that asynch makes imbalances even more glaring. In the past, if wild was weak in limited you could come up with a pretty good wild deck that did alright. Now 2-0 decks are extremely good and would be extraordinarily hard to get in normal draft.
      Are you saying that asynch draft format is partially like sealed because the format no longer rewards hate drafting as much? What reasoning do you use to come to that conclusion? Is asynch draft partially like constructed because that's also a format that doesn't have hate drafting in it? The reason Eraia didn't respond to the second sentence was because you didn't connect it to your first sentence. Eraia wanted to respond to your first sentence and likely would have quoted everything that was related, but it didn't seem like anything else in your post was related.

      Could you elaborate on how asynch makes imbalances larger? It's still a draft format. If an archetype is simply the strongest archetype, then people will gravitate towards it more often, meaning there's more competition for those cards in the draft. Sure, hate drafting is not rewarding as heavily as before, but it's still rewarded. Most people queuing immediately after the draft will be those from the same pod anyways. Even if you end up facing players that aren't part of your pod, if those players reached their current record by defeating players that were in your pod, then if you weakened the deck of the opponents in your pod, then you've increased the chance of someone from another pod with a less powerful draft deck reaching 1-0 or 2-0 when they otherwise wouldn't, increasing your chances of victory. Sure, it's not as significant as if you can only get matched up against opponents from your own pod, but the consequences still exist.
    • Biz wrote:

      lots of people complain about the lack of real drafts on mtgo as well

      cross-pod play is a sacrifice of balance + depth + self-determination in exchange for increased convenience

      not everyone thinks convenience is more important than any of the other 3, let alone all of them combined

      and in hex's case (low player population), that convenience is only partially true because for half the timezones in the world the old drafts had more consistent waiting times than the gauntlets
      Lots of people complain about the decline of radio as well... or the loss of all of the mom and pop convenience stores in small towns....

      Anytime you break tradition, people will be upset, whether it makes sense to be upset or not.
      Gamer. Streamer. Photographer. Writer. Anime Lover. Possessor of Stuffed Animals.

      Also... I'm terrible at this game.
    • Steric wrote:

      Pandaemonium wrote:

      I think he is saying that it is partially like sealed because you may not be in the same pod you drafted. Also, the format no longer really rewards hate drafting like it use to.

      One issue that isn't brought up as much is that asynch makes imbalances even more glaring. In the past, if wild was weak in limited you could come up with a pretty good wild deck that did alright. Now 2-0 decks are extremely good and would be extraordinarily hard to get in normal draft.
      Are you saying that asynch draft format is partially like sealed because the format no longer rewards hate drafting as much? What reasoning do you use to come to that conclusion? Is asynch draft partially like constructed because that's also a format that doesn't have hate drafting in it? The reason Eraia didn't respond to the second sentence was because you didn't connect it to your first sentence. Eraia wanted to respond to your first sentence and likely would have quoted everything that was related, but it didn't seem like anything else in your post was related.
      Could you elaborate on how asynch makes imbalances larger? It's still a draft format. If an archetype is simply the strongest archetype, then people will gravitate towards it more often, meaning there's more competition for those cards in the draft. Sure, hate drafting is not rewarding as heavily as before, but it's still rewarded. Most people queuing immediately after the draft will be those from the same pod anyways. Even if you end up facing players that aren't part of your pod, if those players reached their current record by defeating players that were in your pod, then if you weakened the deck of the opponents in your pod, then you've increased the chance of someone from another pod with a less powerful draft deck reaching 1-0 or 2-0 when they otherwise wouldn't, increasing your chances of victory. Sure, it's not as significant as if you can only get matched up against opponents from your own pod, but the consequences still exist.
      Back in 2-2-1 humans were considered one of the best draft decks. Wild was considered one of the weakest limited shards (if I remember correctly, blood may have been weak too). You could win a draft pod because people were passing decent wild cards.

      However if it was asynch back then a 2-0 deck probably would rarely play wild, if at all. You would see pretty much only humans or dwarf aggro. Moral of the story is that drafting a weaker shard color is not as beneficial as it used to be.
    • Pandaemonium wrote:

      Back in 2-2-1 humans were considered one of the best draft decks. Wild was considered one of the weakest limited shards (if I remeber correctly, blood may have been weak too). You could win a draft pod because people were passing decent wild cards. However if it was asynch back then a 2-0 deck probably would rarely play wild if at all. You would see what you pretty much only (humans or dwarf aggro).
      The thing that I've seen is that a strong deck in a relatively weak shard isn't itself weak. It's just much HARDER to make a strong deck in a weak shard because the quality is so sparse. Right now sapphire has like three different types of amazing cards, each of which can produce an amazing deck with the right support. Wild's 'amazing cards' are much fewer and far between, but they're still almost as good as sapphire cards. So if you can pull a good wild deck with all the awesome wild stuff.... your deck is still going to be a monster to deal with. It's harder to do, but if everyone's fighting over sapphire/diamond, then you can still do it.

      Maybe I'm way off base, but that's been my experience. I keep losing to really good decks in off-meta shard combos because those people recognized the strengtho f the cards in the off-meta shards. I'm not good enough to do it consistently myself, but that's the experience i've seen.
      Gamer. Streamer. Photographer. Writer. Anime Lover. Possessor of Stuffed Animals.

      Also... I'm terrible at this game.
    • Off shard 2-0 decks is not something I have experienced alot of and I don't see it in the data either. If I am wrong please correct me. But if asynch existed in 2-2-1 I can almost guarantee you that 90% of all 2-0 decks would be humans or dwarf aggro.

      Honestly that probably was the case back, but I think the asynch makes the problem even worse.
    • Pandaemonium wrote:

      Back in 2-2-1 humans were considered one of the best draft decks. Wild was considered one of the weakest limited shards (if I remember correctly, blood may have been weak too). You could win a draft pod because people were passing decent wild cards.
      However if it was asynch back then a 2-0 deck probably would rarely play wild, if at all. You would see pretty much only humans or dwarf aggro. Moral of the story is that drafting a weaker shard color is not as beneficial as it used to be.
      So why are people somehow passing fewer decent wild cards in pod draft than in asynch draft? You haven't provided any explanation as to how this has changed. You're making a claim, not proving it.
    • Steric wrote:

      Pandaemonium wrote:

      Back in 2-2-1 humans were considered one of the best draft decks. Wild was considered one of the weakest limited shards (if I remember correctly, blood may have been weak too). You could win a draft pod because people were passing decent wild cards.
      However if it was asynch back then a 2-0 deck probably would rarely play wild, if at all. You would see pretty much only humans or dwarf aggro. Moral of the story is that drafting a weaker shard color is not as beneficial as it used to be.
      So why are people somehow passing fewer decent wild cards in pod draft than in asynch draft? You haven't provided any explanation as to how this has changed. You're making a claim, not proving it.
      They are passing more decent wild cards. Problem is that you are not necessarily playing those same people. Moreover, the other people you play don't necessarily have weak human decks because everyone went for it. So you can have a decent wild deck but your chances of going 3-0 are slimmer now.

      Look at the tournament data, do you see mediocre decks goimg 3-0? I dont see alot of that. Before asynch you could have a mediocore deck and say " how the hell did I win that pod". Now you play against godly decks.
    • Pandaemonium wrote:

      Steric wrote:

      Pandaemonium wrote:

      Back in 2-2-1 humans were considered one of the best draft decks. Wild was considered one of the weakest limited shards (if I remember correctly, blood may have been weak too). You could win a draft pod because people were passing decent wild cards.
      However if it was asynch back then a 2-0 deck probably would rarely play wild, if at all. You would see pretty much only humans or dwarf aggro. Moral of the story is that drafting a weaker shard color is not as beneficial as it used to be.
      So why are people somehow passing fewer decent wild cards in pod draft than in asynch draft? You haven't provided any explanation as to how this has changed. You're making a claim, not proving it.
      They are passing more decent wild cards. Problem is that you are not necessarily playing those same people. Moreover, the other people you play don't necessarily have weak human decks because everyone went for it. So you can have a decent wild deck but your chances of going 3-0 are slimmer now.
      Look at the tournament data, do you see mediocre decks goimg 3-0? I dont see alot of that. Before asynch you could have a mediocore deck and say " how the hell did I win that pod". Now you play against godly decks.
      On average, your podmate's human decks would be stronger than a random opponent's human deck because your pod had at least one person not playing humans, you. Any other pod had 8 people that could have been playing humans.

      Doesn't the tournament data just reflect the fact that people drafting and dropping used to result in byes and now it doesn't?
    • No the tournament data shows that the quality of 3 win decks has increased greatly. Since playing Hex in Alpha, I have never seen decks that had so many good cards in them when it comes to 2-0 decks.

      What I am getting at is that drafting a weak color is not as beneficial as it used to be. But hey, I could be wrong not sure how to prove that.
    • Vroengard wrote:

      Steric wrote:

      Are you saying that asynch draft format is partially like sealed because the format no longer rewards hate drafting as much?
      Plus you have 0 idea what you're up against. These two are the only differences, if you don't take into account the technicality that is the freedom to play whenever.
      So each of those simularities to Sealed are also similarities to Constructed. Saying that asynch draft is like sealed because of this makes just as much sense as saying that it is like constructed.


      Pandaemonium wrote:

      No the tournament data shows that the quality of 3 win decks has increased greatly. Since playing Hex in Alpha, I have never seen decks that had so many good cards in them when it comes to 2-0 decks.


      What I am getting at is that drafting a weak color is not as beneficial as it used to be. But hey, I could be wrong not sure how to prove that.

      I mean, there's no real point in comparing decks from different formats. An increase in the power of the winning 2-0 decks versus the winning decks from previous draft formats can be attributed to many things, such as a change in the player base (change of ratio of the really good drafters that know the format to the mediocre drafters just spending free draft tickets), or just a difference between 6-6-5 and Set 2 draft.
    • Pandaemonium wrote:

      No the tournament data shows that the quality of 3 win decks has increased greatly. Since playing Hex in Alpha, I have never seen decks that had so many good cards in them when it comes to 2-0 decks.

      What I am getting at is that drafting a weak color is not as beneficial as it used to be. But hey, I could be wrong not sure how to prove that.

      Well that may be due to the better people pivoting their drafting strategy.

      for a draft pod, if 3 people force draft for the same shards, you may have 3 mediocre decks in the same shards. Perhaps the other 5 got amazing decks in the other shards. Perhaps not. But if 2 of the 3 people who all wanted to force the same shard face each other, one gets rewarded while the other 2 may not.

      Not having pods means the people who are stubborn and try to force an archetype they have no business staying in will more likely lose to players in another pod where everyone read the signals perfectly and all got strong decks.
      There was a signature here. It's gone now.
    • Steric wrote:

      So each of those simularities to Sealed are also similarities to Constructed. Saying that asynch draft is like sealed because of this makes just as much sense as saying that it is like constructed.
      Draft & Sealed are Limited formats.
      Constructed is constructed.

      I mean, you'd normaly compare an orange to an apple, not to a basketball ball, even though they are both round and orange.
    • Vroengard wrote:

      Steric wrote:

      So each of those simularities to Sealed are also similarities to Constructed. Saying that asynch draft is like sealed because of this makes just as much sense as saying that it is like constructed.
      Draft & Sealed are Limited formats.Constructed is constructed.

      I mean, you'd normaly compare an orange to an apple, not to a basketball ball, even though they are both round and orange.
      Wait are you telling me i shouldn't peel and eat basketballs I'm confused?
    • Darkwonders wrote:

      Not having pods means the people who are stubborn and try to force an archetype they have no business staying in will more likely lose to players in another pod where everyone read the signals perfectly and all got strong decks.
      I think there's an interesting discussion to be had about whether or not this is a good thing. While pod play rewards hate-drafting more, I think you bring up a good argument showing why proficiency at reading and sending signals is an even more important skill in asynch draft. On the other hand, it means that the players you end up with in your pool can have a larger impact on your performance. In a pod draft, if you end up in a pool with a bunch of bad players, you'll end up with a worse deck, but since you're a stronger player, will be able to win anyways. In asynch draft, your bad deck will end up playing against people from other pools that may not have had the quality of their deck harmed by poor signalling and reading of their podmates. The reverse is also the case, if you end up in a pool full of strong players that are all very well versed in reading and sending signals, there's going to be less rare-drafting and you won't have as much competition over the cards in your colors, making everyone's decks stronger.



      Vroengard wrote:

      Draft & Sealed are Limited formats.Constructed is constructed.

      I mean, you'd normaly compare an orange to an apple, not to a basketball ball, even though they are both round and orange.
      And draft is a draft format and Sealed is a sealed format. You're trying to compare apples and oranges. Sure, they're both limited, but that's where the similarities end. Every similarity that Asynch draft has with Sealed that pod draft doesn't is also a similarity that asynch draft has with constructed. So why are we comparing draft to sealed at all? I only pointed out the basketball because people are trying to compare apples and oranges.
    • Steric wrote:

      I mean, there's no real point in comparing decks from different formats. An increase in the power of the winning 2-0 decks versus the winning decks from previous draft formats can be attributed to many things, such as a change in the player base (change of ratio of the really good drafters that know the format to the mediocre drafters just spending free draft tickets), or just a difference between 6-6-5 and Set 2 draft.
      I disagree. My observation is that the power of 2-0 decks is increased now because of the reduced incentive to hate-draft and not the sets. For instance, in traditional pods, many players are going to cut the crap out of the third Tech-tician if they have already passed 2 even though they are not playing Dreadlings. Now? You find decks with 4 Tech-tician, 3 Jorgen Workshop, 3 Blood Bearer and that sort of craziness in some decks, particularly in the 1-0 and 2-0 zone. Things would be the same if we are drafting 2-2-1 in async, you would see decks with 3 Royal Cutblood, 3 Buccaneer, maybe a Wild deck with 4 Wrecksaurus and so on. I don't see these kind of deck a lot last time. Async makes deck more bombastic than traditional drafting.

      -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

      Now that I think of it, here's one thing that makes async draft feels "sealed-ly" to me. In traditional draft, if you already draft the best S/B Dreadling deck in your pod, then you have the best Dreadling deck in the pod and you can feel good about it. Maybe you win, maybe you don't, but either way you can certainly feel that you have done your best on the drafting portion of it. Now? Not really. Maybe you really drafted your best, you didn't play immediately, you waited and checked HexPvpTools, yes, you got all the good B/D Dreadling cards in your pod. Your pod is not really that good on B/D Dreadling(which explained why it was open), but it's okay, you got your 2 Tech-Tician, a Jorgen's Workshop, some decent other cards that will help you win. Okay, you jumped into the queue...and get matched with a deck with 4 Tech-Tician, 4 Skittering Cultivator and 2 Dread Deployment. You got destroyed and now your best reward is 2 measly packs, which sucks because compare to the traditional draft, you are very likely to get to round 2 and that would have get you 2 packs already. If you go to final or win it, which is certainly possible if you are the sole B/D Dreadling in the pod, then you win even more.

      Well, things like this wouldn't happened in traditional drafting. You are not going to see 4 Tech-Tician on your opponents if your pod only have 2 and you grabbed that 2. This part certainly feels like sealed -- "Oh well, he just opens better cards than me." or "Oh well, he is on a pod with better Dreadling cards."
    • Goliathus wrote:

      Steric wrote:

      I mean, there's no real point in comparing decks from different formats. An increase in the power of the winning 2-0 decks versus the winning decks from previous draft formats can be attributed to many things, such as a change in the player base (change of ratio of the really good drafters that know the format to the mediocre drafters just spending free draft tickets), or just a difference between 6-6-5 and Set 2 draft.
      I disagree. My observation is that the power of 2-0 decks is increased now because of the reduced incentive to hate-draft and not the sets. For instance, in traditional pods, many players are going to cut the crap out of the third Tech-tician if they have already passed 2 even though they are not playing Dreadlings. Now? You find decks with 4 Tech-tician, 3 Jorgen Workshop, 3 Blood Bearer and that sort of craziness in some decks, particularly in the 1-0 and 2-0 zone. Things would be the same if we are drafting 2-2-1 in async, you would see decks with 3 Royal Cutblood, 3 Buccaneer, maybe a Wild deck with 4 Wrecksaurus and so on. I don't see these kind of deck a lot last time. Async makes deck more bombastic than traditional drafting.
      -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

      Now that I think of it, here's one thing that makes async draft feels "sealed-ly" to me. In traditional draft, if you already draft the best S/B Dreadling deck in your pod, then you have the best Dreadling deck in the pod and you can feel good about it. Maybe you win, maybe you don't, but either way you can certainly feel that you have done your best on the drafting portion of it. Now? Not really. Maybe you really drafted your best, you didn't play immediately, you waited and checked HexPvpTools, yes, you got all the good B/D Dreadling cards in your pod. Your pod is not really that good on B/D Dreadling(which explained why it was open), but it's okay, you got your 2 Tech-Tician, a Jorgen's Workshop, some decent other cards that will help you win. Okay, you jumped into the queue...and get matched with a deck with 4 Tech-Tician, 4 Skittering Cultivator and 2 Dread Deployment. You got destroyed and now your best reward is 2 measly packs, which sucks because compare to the traditional draft, you are very likely to get to round 2 and that would have get you 2 packs already. If you go to final or win it, which is certainly possible if you are the sole B/D Dreadling in the pod, then you win even more.

      Well, things like this wouldn't happened in traditional drafting. You are not going to see 4 Tech-Tician on your opponents if your pod only have 2 and you grabbed that 2. This part certainly feels like sealed -- "Oh well, he just opens better cards than me." or "Oh well, he is on a pod with better Dreadling cards."
      Well, there's a significant bias in your own observations. Suppose, for a moment, that you simply hate draft far more often than the average player does. The end result is that the average power level of the decks in your pod are lower than the average power level of decks made in pods with players that don't hate draft as much. I think this very well may be the case, based on what you've said. In fact, you even stated that you believe that "Many players are going to cut the crap out of the third Tech-tician if they have already passed 2 even though they are not playing Dreadlings." which shows how you think people draft, which really is a statement more reflective of how you draft than how the average player drafts. I pretty much addressed this in my other post (post #85 in this thread if you want to scroll up and read it) and I feel like there is a discussion worth having. Reading and sending strong signals is rewarded more highly while hate-drafting is less rewarding because the former increases the power level of the entire pod while the latter decreases the power level of the entire pod, which wouldn't matter in pod draft, but with asynch drafting, it has a significant impact on what the winning strategies are.

      As for the "sealed-ly" feel of it, a very similar thing can happen in pod-draft simply as a result of which seat you're sitting in. Two people building the same archetype in two different seats in the same pod can end up with hugely different decks in terms of power level simply as a consequence of luck of the packs. You could get smashed by someone else from the same pod who had an amazing deck in a different archetype simply because that archetype wasn't very open where you were sitting but was quite a bit more open where they were sitting. In the old pod draft reward system, if you lost your first game you were out and you got absolutely nothing. With the gauntlet system, you still have a chance of getting 2 packs even if you lose your first match.