Mono saph/empress and how to make it a fair deck.

    • Mono saph/empress and how to make it a fair deck.

      It's copycat.


      The card needs a casting cost or a ban. Look at the data again please. Rest of the deck is reasonable, manageable even, but dumping board lock/2-4 threats on the board on turn 4 is breaking a standard TCG rule.

      Standard is NOT a turn 4 format.

      This cat problem mirrors ANOTHER cat problem from ANOTHER high profile TCG's standard format. That deck could also win on turn 4 in standard.

      That cat, was banned.

      Would love to hear from an actual dev on this balance issue, and not the usual torch and pitchfork crowd. A noble recommended i mention this in here to get a conversion with a dev going, so i'd love for one to weigh in with exactly what i am supposed to expect from standard, and what (no pun intended) IS the standard the dev's wish to set for Standard format.

      -e-
    • It's already fair. These threads keep popping up, but it's nowhere close to a broken deck, OR card (empress, copycat, and the rest of them). 5 threshold is not easy to get, and getting that high warrants a certain amount of power for the commitment and effort.
      --ossuary

      "Love all, trust a few, do wrong to none."
      - Shakespeare, All's Well That Ends Well
    • Opinion is not what i'm looking for here, nor am i just looking to vent. The parallel to what recently happened in MTG with the Copycat deck is a good example of how NOT to handle unbalanced cards. Don't wait 6 months and erode faith in the product when you make a design mistake. Problems should be looked at with data, not just opinion, and i'm keen to know if HEX intends for standard to be a turn 4 format.
    • Gravitygroove wrote:

      Opinion is not what i'm looking for here
      So what are you looking for? What data do you think suggests that Empress is a problem? It's not the most popular deck on either the ladder or in weekly tournaments or in the recent CCS. It's certainly putting up good results, but there's always going to be a best deck. The best deck isn't necessarily a problem.

      Redlings and R/W sockets and probably a few other standard decks can get turn 4 kills when the opponent doesn't have the appropriate interaction. That's not something unique to the Mono-Sapphire deck.
    • input from the devs on what their vision/intent is for the pace of standard is what i'm hoping for. I don't want to bicker with other players about if they agree or disagree.

      Is no one aware of the Copycat deck i am referring to? If not, feel free to look into it and look up some articles from pro players about it.
    • Gravitygroove wrote:

      input from the devs on what their vision/intent is for the pace of standard is what i'm hoping for. I don't want to bicker with other players about if they agree or disagree.

      Is no one aware of the Copycat deck i am referring to? If not, feel free to look into it and look up some articles from pro players about it.
      My brain cannot even process this statement.

      The Saheeli Rai deck has absolutely nothing in common with the Empress deck. Empress requires more than two cards to kill you, is NOT an infinite combo, is easily disrupted by commonly played cards, IS NOT warping the meta around it.....

      Did you even look at the decks from the CCS today? Five very different archetypes made the top 8. A couple more archetypes barely missed top 8 finishing in the top 16. The meta is perfectly fine. Your just complaining because one of the current best decks is something you don't like playing against.
    • It's a little ironic for you to say you're not looking for opinions when you, yourself, are stating an opinion, rather than a fact. If you're not interested in discussion, you shouldn't be on the internet. Thanks for playing, though. :)
      --ossuary

      "Love all, trust a few, do wrong to none."
      - Shakespeare, All's Well That Ends Well
    • The deck isn't head and shoulders above anything else.

      My team did a lot of testing before this CCS and Empress wasn't even good enough against the field for us to end up playing it.

      Sure it has some over powering draws, but those get interacted with in a number of meaningful ways.

      Also - comparing the best draws of the Empress deck which require 4~ cards to happen plus readying with a Cultivator to a 2 card "I win the game" combo from Magic seems rather silly to me.
    • Biz, that's all i'm asking. If it's intended as a turn 4 format, then i know it's not for me. I played modern a bit in MTG, but i really did not enjoy the format due to it being a turn 3 format, where occasionally you just faced a deck that could goldfish you out. Some people dig those kinda games, but i really enjoy more interaction and suspense.

      Angmar, so your saying the Copycat deck was fine, not degenerate and they should not have banned the cat? The similarities are not in HOW they kill per-say, it's in WHEN, and that ONE CARD enabled it. Mono blue does not NEED to go infinite to have an absolute kill condition on the board on turn 4, they merely have to play multiple out in an explosive manner that negates single target removal that would be applicable on turn 4.

      Yes, you could interact with sahelli rai, YES you can interact with mono blue, but not in any ways that don't still play to the advantages of both decks. WOTC acted to BAN the cat for a reason, even though "THE DECK COULD BE INTERACTED WITH." because that wasn't a good enough answer for having a deck that powerful with a turn 4 win con.

      Anyhow, still looking forward to a dev popping in or shooting me a msg about the intention for the format going forward. As a former mtg player that has lived through the big meta decks, i'm curious.

      Thanks,

      -e-

      Edit:

      That's fair jeff. and i respect that you put in alot of testing to get to the results you discovered, and again i think the deck is entirely fair, EXCEPT for the explosiveness of copycat. Give it a casting cost and i think it would be entirely reasonable, and still powerful.
    • If we're taking a data driven approach I would argue this situation is nothing similar to the copycat situation in MTG. That combo put such contraints on the format that entire top 8s were just it and mardu vehicles (the only deck that could stand a chance). This past CCS has blood based control, SD control, redlings, kaigu and empress all make top 8. Might not be a perfect metagame but far from one that necessitates bannings.
    • you won't die to infinite damage on turn 4 like magic, but games are usually going to be decided in the first few turns because the cards are very strong individually and you can't reliably address large boards until 6 or 7 resources

      every color (except green) does broken shit. the game is about seeing how your broken shit stacks up against your opponents' broken shit, but it's more interactive and less about assembling some unstoppable combo.
    • Biz wrote:

      you won't die to infinite damage on turn 4 like magic, but games are usually going to be decided in the first few turns because the cards are very strong individually and you can't reliably address large boards until 6 or 7 resources

      every color (except green) does broken shit. the game is about seeing how your broken shit stacks up against your opponents' broken shit, but it's more interactive and less about assembling some unstoppable combo.
      We have a lot of strong cards right now but I would hardly call anything broken, especially with how diverse the format currently is.
    • AxelDWater wrote:

      Two questions please...1) What is saheeli rai
      2) Where can I see the CCS top 8 decklists?
      1) 3s of Google search: It's an infinite combo. Have Saheeli Rai (PW) on board, play Felidar Guardian (creature), exile SR, bring her back, copy FG (gets Haste), exile SR, bring her back, copy FG etc etc

      2) Can't find them on hexmeta, guess we have to wait until the article tomorrow or the day after.
    • I think the biggest issue is simply just threshold balancing - cards like copycat are 'supposed' to be played on turn 5 instead of 4, that's how it was designed to be balanced around.

      I'm pretty certain if you have an extra turn against the mono sapphire deck it would feel much better.

      If the Hex balancing team finds this deck to be a problem, they can easily just up the Uzzu charge power cost to 5 (or keep it at 4 but can't gain two of the same threshold on the same turn).